How to Quarantine

[melypr1985]

so I'm confused...do you and Carrie B. agree or not...?Need a specific time line...thanks...

If the tank is not going fallow then there isn't a real timeline to know if the display is safe. I figure after a couple weeks and you haven't seen any of the same symptoms from the other fish, then you might just add him back to the display. Though, if we are reasonably sure there was velvet in the system, then all fish should be treated and the display left fallow. That's how it should be

 

[CarrieB]

so I'm confused...do you and Carrie B. agree or not...?Need a specific time line...thanks...

Sorry for the confusion. I assumed you were leaving your DT fallow, in which case my answer stands. If you have fish in your DT, I don't have an answer for you.

 

[Humblefish]

If the tank is not going fallow then there isn't a real timeline to know if the display is safe. I figure after a couple weeks and you haven't seen any of the same symptoms from the other fish, then you might just add him back to the display. Though, if we are reasonably sure there was velvet in the system, then all fish should be treated and the display left fallow. That's how it should be

Sorry for the confusion. I assumed you were leaving your DT fallow, in which case my answer stands. If you have fish in your DT, I don't have an answer for you.

^^ Agree. If no symptoms show on any fish in the DT by the time the angel is done with QT, then all you can do is put him back in the DT and see what happens.

 

[mcarroll]

If no symptoms show on any fish in the DT by the time the angel is done with QT, then all you can do is put him back in the DT and see what happens.

I'm not sure that's all one can do...

I may have missed it, but did @Congaken already get info on stress reduction or other ways to make his fish healthier for the re-introduction to the display?

 

[Congaken]

I'm not sure that's all one can do...

I may have missed it, but did @Congaken already get info on stress reduction or other ways to make his fish healthier for the re-introduction to the display?

Thanks...no...like to have this info...

 

[VJV]

@Humblefish: want to replenish my snail population but would rather not quarantine them for the full 76 days (as I understand Tomonts may encyst onto the shell). Would a good scrub and rinse with a toothbrush be effective or do you think I would be running a high risk?

 

[Brew12]

@Humblefish: want to replenish my snail population but would rather not quarantine them for the full 76 days (as I understand Tomonts may encyst onto the shell). Would a good scrub and rinse with a toothbrush be effective or do you think I would be running a high risk?

This is a huge challenge. I set up my frag tank as a mini-DT and currently have a batch of snails in QT. It would sure be nice if there were a supplier that would keep invert only water systems so QT wouldn't be necessary.

 

[mcarroll]

Tomonts on a snail shell are not going to infect healthy fish.

 

[VJV]

Tomonts on a snail shell are not going to infect healthy fish.

I guess we completely disagree on that. Each Tomonts will release up to 200 tomites that will seek a host. If that happens in your tank your fish will certainly catch it and you have defeated the whole purpose and work you had quarantining your fish in the first place.

 

[Brew12]

Tomonts on a snail shell are not going to infect healthy fish.

Why would a Tomont on a shell not infect a healthy fish? It seems like the structure the Tomont is attached to would be irrelevant.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa099

This is an excellent resource when it comes to stocking and maintaining a recirculating flow system. It isn't written for hobbyists but the main points still hold true. They list 6 main points that need to be considered when introducing new specimen.

1) Genetic considerations - understanding which fish are appropriate for your system and which pathogens each species of fish is susceptible to.
2) Nutrition - good nutrition plays a role in maintaining healthy fish
3) Water Quality - reduces stress which can degrade the immunity of a fish
4) Quarintine - Biosecurity procedures to keep harmful bacteria, diseases, and parasites away from your DT
5) Sanitation - proper filtration and husbandry practices
6) Disinfection - reduce pathogens through proper cleaning

To give the greatest chance of success all 6 of these should be practiced.

 

[Congaken]

If you can transfer him into a different QT (at least 10 feet away), then you can move him out of CP after 2 weeks. Only the fish gets transferred... nothing else from the "treatment tank" gets reused in QT#2. This is like doing a tank transfer.

Bobby

Humble Bobby...that Singapore has been in QT for a week...I changed water on Sunday, replaced the CP and Ammo Lock...cleaned filter in old water, put in Algone to clear the water...water is more cloudy than ever...the angelfish hides most of the time...body still looks fine, never saw velvet on him only behavioral stuff...not eating good...afraid he won't survive this QT...since I never took the other fish out of DT for fallow, what do you think...anything to lose if I put him back in...hasn't done any behavioral things since in QT...upsetting situation...I realize that its a gamble either way...all fish in DT seem fine...thanks...

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks...no...like to have this info...

I just posted a lot of it here and here.

Here's a good place to start:
Circular 919/FA005: Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease

Why would a Tomont on a shell not infect a healthy fish?

That's an excellent question that has more to do with the healthy fish than the thing on the snail.

If you're going to assert that a single pathogenic organism on a snail is going to infect a healthy fish, I'd like to hear some odds. "Will infect" is different than "Can infect".

Healthy fish have a number of immune defenses against scenarios like that.

"Immunocompromised", on the other hand, is a long stinkin' word that was invented for a reason.

It's used to describe organisms in the state that many of our fish are in – especially upon arrival, but sometimes things don't get better if the display tank becomes another source of stress.

It's a state where one (or all) of the immune defenses have been worn down and/or overcome and no longer function.

Fish might not be able to produce enough slime or their slime might not be fully anti-microbial, for example.

If your fish go past QT in an immunocompromised state – due to stress (see the link above) or nutrition – they'll catch something sooner or later that they won't be able to defend against.

It will potentially be anything right down to bacteria in their gut, depending on the state of the fish. Maybe even something from an un-quarantined snail.

Helping the fish to build a functional immune system and then permanently avoiding this state of dysfunction are your real jobs as a fishkeeper.

QT is a useful tool for minimizing risk.

Meds are useful for knocking back existing infections or outbreaks.

However, the only long term "cure" with any degree of guarantee is a healthy fish with a functional immune system.

 

[Brew12]

QT is a useful tool for minimizing risk.

Meds are useful for knocking back existing infections or outbreaks.

However, the only long term "cure" with any degree of guarantee is a healthy fish with a functional immune system.

I think this is the point. QT is a very useful tool for minimizing risk.

Every hobbyist has a responsibility to the fish to keep them as healthy as possible. This means reduced stress and proper nutrition. However, the typical hobbyist cannot guarantee that they will maintain this proper condition. A failed heater can reduce a the immune system of a fish in as little as an hour. A stuck on ATO can have the same impact. If we allow the Ich or Velvet parasite to exist in our systems because of a lack of proper QT this will always be a risk.

I am a big fan of PaulB. In fact, next year I plan on starting a new tank that I will not be doing any QT on. I also will not have any Tangs or Angels since they are less likely to be able to develop an immunity to more common parasites. I will use Tamp Live Rock to start it and will feed almost exclusively live food. I expect this tank to be a success. The issue is that this isn't how most people run their aquariums. Paul B will tell you that if you want a "pristine" looking tank with no algae that you need to QT. Since this is what most hobbyists strive for, QT is necessary. A low nutrient system with nothing but fish, coral, and coralline algae will succumb to disease very quickly at the first stress event. The type of system Paul B runs requires the tank to be dirty. It needs sponges and algae and bacteria (other than just nitrifying bacteria). Since this isn't what the typical reefer wants, it won't work. That is why these forums see so many cases of people with sick fish. It is full of people who don't use any form of QT and hope that the fish will be fine if they keep the tank lean and feed them. It just doesn't work.

 

[mcarroll]

Humble Bobby...that Singapore has been in QT for a week...

I wasn't able to find a lot on these guys (Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus) even though they seem to be a well-known fish....

There was this....

Social and reproductive behavior ofChaetodontoplus mesoleucus (Pomacanthidae) at Bantayan island, Philippines, with notes on pomacanthid relationships​

That's only an abstract, but contains some basic info:

Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus occurs at Bantayan Island in a habitat of small patches of mixed scleractinian and alcyonacean corals of low diversity and simple structure.

The species did not occur on complex coral reefs.

Social and spawning behavior are nearly identical to that of most pomacanthids for which data are available, and although sex-change was not demonstrated, size-related dominance hierarchies and close phylogenetic relationships to sex-changing pomacanthids suggest protogynous hermaphroditism in this species.​

 

[Humblefish]

Tomonts on a snail shell are not going to infect healthy fish.

This is a very irresponsible thing to say, when science has clearly proven otherwise.

Humble Bobby...that Singapore has been in QT for a week...I changed water on Sunday, replaced the CP and Ammo Lock...cleaned filter in old water, put in Algone to clear the water...water is more cloudy than ever...the angelfish hides most of the time...body still looks fine, never saw velvet on him only behavioral stuff...not eating good...afraid he won't survive this QT...since I never took the other fish out of DT for fallow, what do you think...anything to lose if I put him back in...hasn't done any behavioral things since in QT...upsetting situation...I realize that its a gamble either way...all fish in DT seem fine...thanks...

If he had velvet, those trophonts should have dropped off by now. Assuming you've maintained CP at therapeutic levels for the entire 7 days, you can go ahead & return the angel to the DT. Since you aren't going fallow anyway.

 

[melypr1985]

This is a very irresponsible thing to say, when science has clearly proven otherwise.

Agree 100%. While healthy feeding and low stress are good for every fish, saying that tomonts will not infect a healthy fish is just wrong on all levels.

 

[mcarroll]

Wow.

This is a very irresponsible thing to say, when science has clearly proven otherwise.

Agree 100%. While healthy feeding and low stress are good for every fish, saying that tomonts will not infect a healthy fish is just wrong on all levels.

Just no recall of prior conversations or research?

Pretty aggressive criticism on your parts once again so let met give two tips.

Fish slime.
HLP's.

Now pls get back to me when you know how those things interact with our lone bug from post #1126.

 

[VJV]

@Humblefish: want to replenish my snail population but would rather not quarantine them for the full 76 days (as I understand Tomonts may encyst onto the shell). Would a good scrub and rinse with a toothbrush be effective or do you think I would be running a high risk?

Humblefish, my previous post was kind off hijacked and would still like to have your views on this.

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish: want to replenish my snail population but would rather not quarantine them for the full 76 days (as I understand Tomonts may encyst onto the shell). Would a good scrub and rinse with a toothbrush be effective or do you think I would be running a high risk?

Even if tomonts could be scrubbed off, what about any that encyst inside the shell?

 

[Smo]

Wow.





Just no recall of prior conversations or research?

Pretty aggressive criticism on your parts once again so let met give two tips.

Fish slime.
HLP's.

Now pls get back to me when you know how those things interact with our lone bug from post #1126.

Sounds like an Ich management discussion vs Ich cure. Since much in this hobby is based on anecdotal experience as well as scientific research--it is not surprising we would have diverse opinions. That's one of the great values in R2R.