Hows my cycle doing..?

[peterire]

Hi,

just looking for a little help, basically trying to figure out at what point my cycle is at and roughly how long to go

I've had the tank (reefer350 deluxe) up and running with cured live rock and some CUC for 3 weeks. After two weeks I wasnt seeing any Nitrite or Nitrate, just low Ammonia, so my LFS suggest a bottle of bac (bacto blend). That seemed to kick things in to gear a bit. But I've really just been seeing low levels of each now every day. No spikes at all.

Is it possible none will spike and they will all eventually go to zero in sequence (ammonia, nitrite , nitrate).

Just eager to get some clown fish in there. Patience is the key I hear, but its tough going

Ammonia: .2
Nitrite: .05
Nitrate: 5

temp: 78F
Lights: Im running them for 6hrs a day now to try get some more algae growth for the CUC

Any advice appreciated

 

[dank reefer]

What's been your source of ammonia? Ghost feeding, Dead Shrimp, or in a bottle?

 

[peterire]

After 1 week I put some turbo snails, urchin and a few hermit crabs in. Fed them flakes each day. Then last week added some more snails and a fighting conch. LFS said to ease off on the feeding, let them eat through the growth on the live rock. They have cleaned it up a lot, little worried theres not enough for them now. So I've fed just a small amount of flakes 2 days ago and some algae for the urchin.

 

[Lasse]

Your readings of 0.05 in nitrite will affect your nitrate reading with a factor of between 50 and 100 - depending on testing brand. It is of no meaning to measure nitrate during the cycle process - nitrite in the water disturb the readings.

Most total ammonia reading test brand will say around 0.2 even if it is zero

Its true - you need an ammonia source - if your CUC contain hermits - you can feed them very, very, very little. Please read my article here if you want to introduce a fish. But the secret is - very little feeding

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

.

 

[Lasse]

this cycle is 100% done. There isn’t one degree that isn’t done. Live rock simply moves tanks, has no die off, and stays cycled as many times as you move it. We would not add ammonia to live rock systems, it burns animals hiding in the rock. The testers you are using can’t be used to run a cycle accurately, they have to be used another way vs looking for zero readings. Read this thread Peter and youll see the cycle was done the day you sat rocks in the tank.

you used skip cycle rock. Just like all macna conventions who skip cycles for twenty years.

The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

You can skip your cycle. Ive been reefing online for twenty years and have never waited one second for a tank to cycle, because I buy rocks that are already cycled and move them home. Here's two: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/...

www.reef2reef.com

I agree that to dos chemical ammonia or use the rutten shrimp method is not necessary in this case. However - it is slow growing bacteria so I recommend you to follow a feeding schedule similar to the one I outline in my article. This schedule allow your fish to dose small amount of ammonia that will be increased during time - allowing your nitrifying bacteria to grow up to your carrying capacity. With that method - it is possible to get the tank FULLY cycled (nitrification cycle) without any spikes of whatever. To make a safe cycle (using both belt and braces) is wise to add pure nitrification bacteria every day - however is not always needed if you feed very, very carefully. You will also add nutrients to the water (with your feeding) - nutrients that will be converted into food for your grazers.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

.

 

[peterire]

Thanks for the information guys. From what Im hearing it sounds like the cycle is pretty much done and I could add some clownfish now if I wanted. I think I'll continue to test this week and then bring a sample of water to my LFS on Friday and see whats what.

I'll go careful with the feeding and keep an eye on Ammonia and Nitrite.

Should Nitrate only be tested then after Nitrite hits zero ?

 

[Lasse]

Should Nitrate only be tested then after Nitrite hits zero ?

Yes!

and IMO - the nitrite is easier to control and rely on - the ammonia tests often show just 0.2 ppm IME

Sincerely Lasse

 

[peterire]

Yes!

and IMO - the nitrite is easier to control and rely on - the ammonia tests often show just 0.2 ppm IME

Sincerely Lasse

What level of Nitrite is toxic to fish ?

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Thanks for the information guys. From what Im hearing it sounds like the cycle is pretty much done and I could add some clownfish now if I wanted. I think I'll continue to test this week and then bring a sample of water to my LFS on Friday and see whats what.

I'll go careful with the feeding and keep an eye on Ammonia and Nitrite.

Should Nitrate only be tested then after Nitrite hits zero ?

Quick question, when you say it was cured live rock, did you purchase it wet and keep it wet or was it dry when you purchased it?

The reason I ask is that your tank picture looks a lot like the purple live rock that is sold dry and claims to have bacteria already in the rock. If that is the case, be very careful and follow @Lasse article for starting a tank with fish. If the rock was dry, you probably don't have enough bacteria to handle a fish load yet and the reason you are seeing low numbers is because you don't have a large enough ammonia source.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

What level of Nitrite is toxic to fish ?

Nitrite at your current level is not harmful to saltwater fish. It is more of a problem with freshwater.

 

[peterire]

Quick question, when you say it was cured live rock, did you purchase it wet and keep it wet or was it dry when you purchased it?

The reason I ask is that your tank picture looks a lot like the purple live rock that is sold dry and claims to have bacteria already in the rock. If that is the case, be very careful and follow @Lasse article for starting a tank with fish. If the rock was dry, you probably don't have enough bacteria to handle a fish load yet and the reason you are seeing low numbers is because you don't have a large enough ammonia source.

It was wet when I bought it, but it was out of water for 24hrs. During that time I had used epoxy to glue the rock together and let it dry overnight. Then the next day I added the salt water (and live sand). I was told 24hrs would be ok.
Assume there would have been some die off.
But that's my fear that I don't have enough bacteria to handle fish and why I assume my LFS said to wait a while longer.

 

[Lasse]

Nitrite is not toxic in saltwater. The toxicity of nitrite is depending of the uptake rate from the water. The uptake happens in different ion channels in the gills. When nitrite reach the bloodstream - it change the hemoglobin in the blood cells to methemoglobin and this form can´t take up oxygen. However chloride in the water block the uptake in the gills. In freshwater - around 80 mg/l of chloride ions will block nitrite uptake. Saltwater have around 19 000 mg/l of chloride ions.

But it is a good indicator if the nitrification cycle have been completed or not.

Is not a question of fish and amount of bacteria. It is a question of ammonium/nitrite and bacteria. Fish will will excrete ammonia (NH3/NH4) when they eat (up to around 40 minutes after feeding have most excess N been excreted) This ammonia should bee treated by the first group of bacteria and archaea into nitrite. This happens rather fast. Nitrite to nitrate can however take some time to complete. In salt water - is only free ammonia gas that is toxic (depending on pH). Total ammonia consists of ammonia gas (NH3) and ammonia ions (NH4) there NH3 is around 15 % of total ammonia (NH3+NH4) at pH 8.5 and 25 degree C

In a newly started aquarium you will total manage the amount of ammonia with help of how much you feed. Please look at the feeding regime in my article - it has been used thousand of times without any dead fishes.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

its not a good indicator because the test kits we use for nitrite also show it in full running reefs. the hobby doesnt have any good nitrite testers. every assessment made in this thread is based on an incorrect test reading. originally there was a link on how to get around that though, but if you are going to wait for cycled rocks to show cycled on api, we can still chart how long that will take and use the info in our skip cycling threads.

in our skip cycle threads where we go 36 pages making cycle calls nitrite is never factored, as its not required to be factored in any marine cycle until we get digital testers for it, and even then we still wont need to see it for the reasons listed in the first few sentences above. any way you slice it, this reef is cycled but we still want to see how long it takes api to agree, that is worth noting in all cases.



here's a live rock transfer skip cycle.

Fluval Evo 13.5 Build Thread

Is Nemo struggling with his swimming or is this a normal swimming pattern?

www.reef2reef.com

a recent one.

 

[Lasse]

Yes - and you have between 0.020 and 0.1 in nitrite in most mature aquarium. This is a figure from a Lab in Ostrich (Oceamo) that have been analysing nitrite in aquarium for a long period. My mature (4 years old) aquarium had 0.022 mg/L last analyse. @Christoph can you confirm my overall figures? It is true that the nitrite test in the hobby sometimes not show these low figures but nitrite can exist in a good working aquarium. This will affect low nitrate readings too and there is two brands that also recommend testing nitrite when you test nitrate (Fauna Marine and Tropical marine nitrite/nitrate tests)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

When cycle is completed - levels below 0.03 - 0,04 mg/L NO2 is acceptable IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[IslandLifeReef]

It was wet when I bought it, but it was out of water for 24hrs. During that time I had used epoxy to glue the rock together and let it dry overnight. Then the next day I added the salt water (and live sand). I was told 24hrs would be ok.
Assume there would have been some die off.
But that's my fear that I don't have enough bacteria to handle fish and why I assume my LFS said to wait a while longer.

You can wait, it never hurts to go slower than you want to in this hobby.

I still stand by following the article @Lasse posted. You already have inverts in the tank. Slowly adding fish via the "Lasse Method" is very doable.

 

[peterire]

You can wait, it never hurts to go slower than you want to in this hobby.

I still stand by following the article @Lasse posted. You already have inverts in the tank. Slowly adding fish via the "Lasse Method" is very doable.

Ok thanks. I suppose the question is, if I wait then for how long. If I keep waiting will Ammonia and Nitrite (or at least Nitrite) eventually drop to zero?
I'm using red sea testing kits.

(todays test in pic, pretty much no change)

 

[mitch91175]

Im little confused right now though I will say. On one hand people are saying not to test nitrate until after nitrite hits zero, but also that Nitrite doesnt need to be factored in to a cycle. Then theres the fact that an ammonia reat can show .2 even if its actually zero.

Ok thanks. I suppose the question is, if I wait then for how long. If I keep waiting will Ammonia and Nitrite (or at least Nitrite) eventually drop to zero?
I'm using red sea testing kits.

You can add fish to your system and not worry about ammonia and nitrite. Just do not over feed your system. Get on a schedule and feed the amount of food necessary for the fish to eat. Monitor your fish and have Amquel or Prime on hand just in case (but should not be a problem).

Only add 1 or 2 fish at a time and consider the size of the fish you are adding and the amount it will require to feed.Also consider the order in which you want to introduce your fish based on species and aggressiveness.