Hypochondriac Grouper

[RC79ATC]

Alright folks.

I am at my wits end with this one. I have a small graysby grouper that acts strangely when I put it back into my display tank after removing it due to some odd behavior.

I have him in a grow out tank with a couple small lane snapper. The lanes act absolutely normal. Eat fine, breathing is fine, nothing out of the ordinary...they act like every lane snapper I have ever kept.

The grouper on the other hand, acts like it has flukes. Colors get dull, fins close to the body, flashing its gills on the sand rocks (specifically the area of the gills), yawns... still eats like a horse and tries to bully the snappers but just acts wierd.

but get this...I can take him out, put it in the observation tank...perfectly fine Immediately. Colors are good, no clasped fins...no scratching.

The first time this happened, I ran a prazi pro treatment, water change, second treatment...waterchange again...never stopped acting wierd. So I figured maybe it was ich in the gills so I took him out, copper treatment in Q tank and let the tank lay fallow at 83 degrees for 60 days.

I quarantined the snapper, added them to the tank. No issues. A week after I added the grouper back...and within minutes...scratching, clasped fins and dull color.

Ph is good, no ammonia, trace nitrates. The tank has briareum corals (encrusting gorgonians) and rescue zoanthids in it...they are all fine. I would figure that if I had a heavy metal issue from top off water (ro di filter water from the grocery store) the corals would be the canary in the coal mine.

What could be the issue? Can flukes hit within minutes and cause the fish to show symptoms that fast? While the other fish show now symptoms?

No ich spots, no velvet, no clownfish disease...at least no outward signs. It is kind of annoying.

What are the reasons why a fish that is healthy in one tank 5 minutes ago...act like this?

I appreciate any and all help.

Respectfully,
RC

 

[vetteguy53081]

Alright folks.

I am at my wits end with this one. I have a small graysby grouper that acts strangely when I put it back into my display tank after removing it due to some odd behavior.

I have him in a grow out tank with a couple small lane snapper. The lanes act absolutely normal. Eat fine, breathing is fine, nothing out of the ordinary...they act like every lane snapper I have ever kept.

The grouper on the other hand, acts like it has flukes. Colors get dull, fins close to the body, flashing its gills on the sand rocks (specifically the area of the gills), yawns... still eats like a horse and tries to bully the snappers but just acts wierd.

but get this...I can take him out, put it in the observation tank...perfectly fine Immediately. Colors are good, no clasped fins...no scratching.

The first time this happened, I ran a prazi pro treatment, water change, second treatment...waterchange again...never stopped acting wierd. So I figured maybe it was ich in the gills so I took him out, copper treatment in Q tank and let the tank lay fallow at 83 degrees for 60 days.

I quarantined the snapper, added them to the tank. No issues. A week after I added the grouper back...and within minutes...scratching, clasped fins and dull color.

Ph is good, no ammonia, trace nitrates. The tank has briareum corals (encrusting gorgonians) and rescue zoanthids in it...they are all fine. I would figure that if I had a heavy metal issue from top off water (ro di filter water from the grocery store) the corals would be the canary in the coal mine.

What could be the issue? Can flukes hit within minutes and cause the fish to show symptoms that fast? While the other fish show now symptoms?

No ich spots, no velvet, no clownfish disease...at least no outward signs. It is kind of annoying.

What are the reasons why a fish that is healthy in one tank 5 minutes ago...act like this?

I appreciate any and all help.

Respectfully,
RC

May very well be flukes based on symptoms described. To the existing tank, you can safely add PraziPro. To be safe, dose at 85% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. If running a skimmer, leave cup off first 24 hrs as skimmer will go nuts from the glycol solution in Prazi

 

[MnFish1]

It can be flukes, but I would not expect them to appear 'within minutes' of being put in the tank. (unless perhaps the QT tank for some reason limited its fluke symptom - i.e the size, etc). No symptoms of a disease should appear within minutes of being put in a new tank. I'm assuming you've double checked your parameters, and the salinity, etc were identical in the 2 tanks.

 

[RC79ATC]

It can be flukes, but I would not expect them to appear 'within minutes' of being put in the tank. (unless perhaps the QT tank for some reason limited its fluke symptom - i.e the size, etc). No symptoms of a disease should appear within minutes of being put in a new tank. I'm assuming you've double checked your parameters, and the salinity, etc were identical in the 2 tanks.

Salinity is .24
Ph 8.1
Temp 78
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate trace
Copper 0

I'm going to get a volt meter and check for stray current. It's odd that the snapper are showing zero signs of anything and they were in the tank first

 

[RC79ATC]

May very well be flukes based on symptoms described. To the existing tank, you can safely add PraziPro. To be safe, dose at 85% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. If running a skimmer, leave cup off first 24 hrs as skimmer will go nuts from the glycol solution in Prazi

I ran the prazi pro treatment but if this continues I may try it again. With the snapper not showing any signs, I may just feed the grouper and hope whatever it is he gets over.

 

[RC79ATC]

May very well be flukes based on symptoms described. To the existing tank, you can safely add PraziPro. To be safe, dose at 85% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. If running a skimmer, leave cup off first 24 hrs as skimmer will go nuts from the glycol solution in Prazi

Any alternate diagnosis?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Any alternate diagnosis?

Will need a video under white light intensity of about 30 seconds to best assess otherwise would be pure guesswork

 

[RC79ATC]

Will need a video under white light intensity of about 30 seconds to best assess otherwise would be pure guesswork

I'll catch one in the AM when the lights come on. Gotta get this figured out. It's annoying lol the only fish I have that is acting like a baby

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Alright folks.

I am at my wits end with this one. I have a small graysby grouper that acts strangely when I put it back into my display tank after removing it due to some odd behavior.

I have him in a grow out tank with a couple small lane snapper. The lanes act absolutely normal. Eat fine, breathing is fine, nothing out of the ordinary...they act like every lane snapper I have ever kept.

The grouper on the other hand, acts like it has flukes. Colors get dull, fins close to the body, flashing its gills on the sand rocks (specifically the area of the gills), yawns... still eats like a horse and tries to bully the snappers but just acts wierd.

but get this...I can take him out, put it in the observation tank...perfectly fine Immediately. Colors are good, no clasped fins...no scratching.

The first time this happened, I ran a prazi pro treatment, water change, second treatment...waterchange again...never stopped acting wierd. So I figured maybe it was ich in the gills so I took him out, copper treatment in Q tank and let the tank lay fallow at 83 degrees for 60 days.

I quarantined the snapper, added them to the tank. No issues. A week after I added the grouper back...and within minutes...scratching, clasped fins and dull color.

Ph is good, no ammonia, trace nitrates. The tank has briareum corals (encrusting gorgonians) and rescue zoanthids in it...they are all fine. I would figure that if I had a heavy metal issue from top off water (ro di filter water from the grocery store) the corals would be the canary in the coal mine.

What could be the issue? Can flukes hit within minutes and cause the fish to show symptoms that fast? While the other fish show now symptoms?

No ich spots, no velvet, no clownfish disease...at least no outward signs. It is kind of annoying.

What are the reasons why a fish that is healthy in one tank 5 minutes ago...act like this?

I appreciate any and all help.

Respectfully,
RC

Flukes take weeks to build to an infection level that will cause a fish to show major symptoms.

The lane snapper and the grouper are related enough that virtually any disease that would affect the grouper would also affect the snappers, so I don't think this is a parasitic issue....but I can't tell you what it is.

If the issue turns on and off like a light switch when you move the fish in and out of the display tank, that points to something environmental. However, if it was a toxin, the soft corals would show signs, as well as the snappers. It may be something the grouper doesn't like - maybe it stays close to the bottom and is being irritated by one of the corals?

 

[RC79ATC]

Flukes take weeks to build to an infection level that will cause a fish to show major symptoms.

The lane snapper and the grouper are related enough that virtually any disease that would affect the grouper would also affect the snappers, so I don't think this is a parasitic issue....but I can't tell you what it is.

If the issue turns on and off like a light switch when you move the fish in and out of the display tank, that points to something environmental. However, if it was a toxin, the soft corals would show signs, as well as the snappers. It may be something the grouper doesn't like - maybe it stays close to the bottom and is being irritated by one of the corals?

I feel that it is environmental as well since I have run prazi and the snapper are not showing signs of any issues. However, stranger things have happened I guess.

I wouldn't THINK that zoanthids and gorgonians would be an issue with environmental irritants?

I've been using API test kits for parameters...I'm going to take a water sample up to the LFS that uses Hannah's and see if they get anything different from what I am.

I'm going to do a big water change this weekend and change out my rotating filter media and see if that helps. Maybe add a track of new activated carbon to scrub any issues out.

If that doesn't work, I'll run another round of Prazi. I've thought about running Chloroquine as I have some for my large predator ponds but I'm apprehensive of using it in a display...even a grow out one like this...not to mention it is expensive lol

 

[MnFish1]

I feel that it is environmental as well since I have run prazi and the snapper are not showing signs of any issues. However, stranger things have happened I guess.

I wouldn't THINK that zoanthids and gorgonians would be an issue with environmental irritants?

I've been using API test kits for parameters...I'm going to take a water sample up to the LFS that uses Hannah's and see if they get anything different from what I am.

I'm going to do a big water change this weekend and change out my rotating filter media and see if that helps. Maybe add a track of new activated carbon to scrub any issues out.

If that doesn't work, I'll run another round of Prazi. I've thought about running Chloroquine as I have some for my large predator ponds but I'm apprehensive of using it in a display...even a grow out one like this...not to mention it is expensive lol

Just a quick suggestion - I don't disagree with anything you've planned EXCEPT - I would give each remedy a chance to work i.e. unless its an emergency, try not to do too many things at once.

 

[RC79ATC]

Just a quick suggestion - I don't disagree with anything you've planned EXCEPT - I would give each remedy a chance to work i.e. unless its an emergency, try not to do too many things at once.

Absolutely. I'm gonna give the grouper a week or so, as long as it doesn't look like he is in the process of expiring messily and the snapper don't start showing symptoms.

If things to south, I'll try the remedies

 

[Uncle99]

Sounds like he don’t like to share with the snappers, maybe feels out numbered?

Can you remove the snappers temporarily to see if he returns to normal when they are gone? Is that easy? Results could at least, rule that option out.

Is it the same when lights are out?

Could he see his reflection when lights on ?

 

[RC79ATC]

Here is a short video. You can see him scratch and shimmy. It's pretty mild here and his fins are more extended so, hopefully it means he is getting over himself.

 

[MnFish1]

Here is a short video. You can see him scratch and shimmy. It's pretty mild here and his fins are more extended so, hopefully it means he is getting over himself.

Unfortunately, the video abilities here are limited - usually best to post a YouTube... I cannot see it. I would like to if possible. It is not common (but also not uncommon) to need a third round of prazipro. IF, in fact, you need one - your other fish should be treated as well.

 

[RC79ATC]

Sounds like he don’t like to share with the snappers, maybe feels out numbered?

Can you remove the snappers temporarily to see if he returns to normal when they are gone? Is 5th at an option?

The snappers generally stay to themselves. They pick at each other and ignore him. I am probably going to relocate one of them to another tank soon, but first to make sure I'm not sharing problems

 

[MnFish1]

The snappers generally stay to themselves. They pick at each other and ignore him. I am probably going to relocate one of them to another tank soon, but first to make sure I'm not sharing problems

Just realize that each tank you potentially move the fish to - who may (or may not) have been exposed to flukes will need to go through the prazipro treatment...

 

[RC79ATC]

Unfortunately, the video abilities here are limited - usually best to post a YouTube... I cannot see it. I would like to if possible. It is not common (but also not uncommon) to need a third round of prazipro. IF, in fact, you need one - your other fish should be treated as well.

 

[RC79ATC]

Just realize that each tank you potentially move the fish to - who may (or may not) have been exposed to flukes will need to go through the prazipro treatment...

Absolutely. I'm going to pinpoint the problem and fix it before I share it to a new tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I feel that it is environmental as well since I have run prazi and the snapper are not showing signs of any issues. However, stranger things have happened I guess.

I wouldn't THINK that zoanthids and gorgonians would be an issue with environmental irritants?

I've been using API test kits for parameters...I'm going to take a water sample up to the LFS that uses Hannah's and see if they get anything different from what I am.

I'm going to do a big water change this weekend and change out my rotating filter media and see if that helps. Maybe add a track of new activated carbon to scrub any issues out.

If that doesn't work, I'll run another round of Prazi. I've thought about running Chloroquine as I have some for my large predator ponds but I'm apprehensive of using it in a display...even a grow out one like this...not to mention it is expensive lol

Chloroquine works well against protozoans, and may also be effective against flukes and other multi-celled parasites, but using it in a display will have major consequences - it will kill corals, anemones and algae for sure, and will likely harm other invertebrates as well. I only use it in fish-only treatment tanks. Here is an article I wrote about its use:

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/

Jay