Hyposalinity Ammonia Spike!

[chunkysoup56]

Currently treating my 180g FOWLR DT with hyposalinity and UV to help combat a recent ich outbreak. Fish seem to be responding well, but, I have noticed a lot of the “nuisance” algae in the tank has died off (which is nice). Only problem is I think this is causing a mini cycle as my Ammonia is now testing at 1ppm

I immediately dosed the recommended amount of Prime this morning. My understanding is that Prime only detoxifies Ammonia but it will still show up in your testing?

My question is how will I know when the problem has resolved and/or if I will need to dose more Prime? I’m assuming the hypo treatment has somehow affected the Biological Filter and this is what is creating the mini spike?????

 

[brandon429]

I think its a misread like the other false read posts, since the animals are ok and being low on salinity wont be antibacterial.

this is rare for a display though, usually hypo is done away from the reef. *I wouldn't doubt if hypo kills some pods/worms etc but in the end that reading you show is posted on hundreds of false read threads.

when ammonia loss is real, and not just a test reading matching tons of other posts, you'll get cloudy water, clear death and smell and the water will go bad in a couple hours.

if its staying clear, smelling normal, no mass dieoff then currently its not under ammonia alert. the test simply can't be used to discern whether or not your biofilter is harmed, it'll have to be the other ways.

if our hundreds of other api and red sea posts showed consistent baseline zero, then we could use your 1 ppm reading as accurate.

 

[chunkysoup56]

Thanks for the reply. Doing hypo in DT because I have 24 fish in there with no corals or inverts. I don’t have the capability to remove the fish to another holding source at the moment.

I’ve confirmed the 1ppm Ammonia levels with both the API and Seachem Tests. Also tested my new saltwater mix water with the same test kits and they are testing at 0 ppm Ammonia which is the reason for my concern.....

I have noticed that the water is slightly cloudy since achieving the target hyposalinity of 1.009 SG but the fish all seem to be acting fine and eating normally.

Do you think it would be safe to dose
some MB7 or Dr Tim’s to be safe?

 

[brandon429]

no, the bacteria have no where to attach they just compete for oxygen.


testing blanked water wont apply, it has no nitrification to over report. see this thread, yours is the same as every post but I agree eventually hypo might kill most benthic creatures unlike these posts below, yours is just before that stage. if you don't have many benthic creatures, knurled old aged live rock, then impacts w be less pronounced to none.

all these tanks had your same posted readings

*if yours starts to cloud or smell, and the readings spike above now, that could be an impending crash but its not loss of bac its loss of benthic life/overcoming.

the only time bottle bac helps is when we've provided new attachment points for it to anchor, in the water is no benefit its skimmed/sinked etc

adding new bio rings + bottle bac still isn't a help, that's more mass to consume o2 and be challenged/might die

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

lets see pics of your tank, hopefully its just cycled dry rocks and not a lot of sponges/macros etc

*you are in fully uncharted cycling waters there isn't a reference avail for salinity shifting, loss or gain of cycle
scholar probably has articles about nitrifiers in different salinities


those are not nitrifiers housed on live rock biofilm studies from an aquarium, this is uncharted territory and you are able to provide great insight into it now so others can see trending. great thread


going off the current standard that cycles are 1000 times tougher than we allow, due to testing issues, I can't see why the bac here would be drastically affected- they're still insulted quite well in biofilms. they haven't even seen the full presentation of the lower salt yet.

 

[chunkysoup56]

Here is a current FTS. Hard to tell from the photo but hopefully you can see the slight cloudiness in the water. Brought the SG down from 1.025 to 1.009 over the course of 3 days. Tank has been at 1.009 now for 4 days now with no more visible signs of ich.

Tank tested 0ppm Ammonia on Sunday and 1ppm today. Cloudiness in water just started appearing yesterday along with a nice cyano bloom that you can see see in certain spots.

 

[chunkysoup56]

Here is a current FTS. Hard to tell from the photo but hopefully you can see the slight cloudiness in the water. Brought the SG down from 1.025 to 1.009 over the course of 3 days. Tank has been at 1.009 now for 4 days now with no more visible signs of ich.

Tank tested 0ppm Ammonia on Sunday and 1ppm today. Cloudiness in water just started appearing yesterday along with a nice cyano bloom that you can see see in certain spots.

 

[brandon429]

well done. if the tests are changing upwards there can be compounding loss from tinier organisms and we'll just have to see how your current surface area fares in response, very cutting edge to see/watch unfold.

the tests aren't totally useless they show down, and up trending rather well. the meter is ticking...

*that tank does have some micro life of course, its aged a bit and looks nice. but its not loaded to the hilt like someone's refugium, that should be a tolerable amount of loss.


*also factoring, that's among the lower surface area arrangements we see in reefing nowadays, the negative aquascape + surface area test with live animals in tow.

normally its two hundred pounds of live rock. your negative scape held less pods and in this instance, contributes to the continuance of the system by not having so much diversity to lose in stress events, interesting how things select naturally. that's my opinion

 

[chunkysoup56]

Truly appreciate the feedback. I’ll try to post any significant updates here over the next few days.

 

[brandon429]

is that with a Moorish idol or one of its analogues what is that amazing fish left side

I believe sensitivity of the fish in that collection are the best indicators of stress from nh3 along with other factors, they're distributed normally per above

In another thread being tested by Jon Malkerson here, a qt tank is in the hundredths ppm nh3 and the fish are still fine (tested by seneye digital, up from the thousandths ppm a reef is known to work at, for that tester)

those tests you have above can cover hundredths ppm levels, that's what they reduce to after TAN conversion for nh3 in most cases anyway going off straight colors reported. it wont be from bac loss it will be from mild overcoming but its still safe zone per above.

 

[chunkysoup56]

Yes, that is “Jillian” my Moorish Idol

 

[brandon429]

Fantastic thread, you have some ultra sensitive creatures in there and if the ammonia hasn’t risen even worse from prior (including visual and smell cues for the system, fish distribution especially at night when o2 runs lowest not just the test) then we have likely hit the maximum loss rate for the system

the hypo is not going to kill the filter bac they’re tougher than that. And if they do start to die we will get hint warnings before any sudden crash. Per that pic above we are fine still

 

[chunkysoup56]

[48 hour update]
My Moorish Idol took a turn for the worse over the past 24 hours..... She went from eating and acting fine on TH to losing control of her swimming ability on FR. I have her isolated in an acclimation box in the current tank but it doesn’t look good.

Ammonia is now testing between 1-2 ppm with the API test kit. I went ahead and redosed Prime just to be safe.All other fish are eating and acting normal. pH is testing at 8.0

 

[brandon429]

That is perfect you’ve intercepted based on behavior and I believe that was true ammonia, powerful thread here. In no way would your system belong in a false alert thread, as a false alert, but now it belongs there so others can see ties to testing and real alerts.

I don’t keep or quarantine marine fish though, so someone tell me how long does hypo usually last, 24 hours? At what point will the fish be harmed by hypo am wondering?


your thread is going to help others by saving them from reacting days to a false reading in a tank they never did anything to upset.

all future ammonia testing is invalid here since prime causes ammonia and nitrite misreads but you waited as long as you could indeed. Did water get more cloudy or hold

 

[chunkysoup56]

Hypo Is typically a 30 day treatment

That is perfect you’ve intercepted based on behavior and I believe that was true ammonia, powerful thread here. In no way would your system belong in a false alert thread, as a false alert, but now it belongs there so others can see ties to testing and real alerts.

I don’t keep or quarantine marine fish though, so someone tell me how long does hypo usually last, 24 hours? At what point will the fish be harmed by hypo am wondering?


your thread is going to help others by saving them from reacting days to a false reading in a tank they never did anything to upset.

all future ammonia testing is invalid here since prime causes ammonia and nitrite misreads but you waited as long as you could indeed. Did water get more cloudy or hold

 

[brandon429]

I’m literally shocked saltwater fish can go that long out of salinity was just reading up on Jays posts when you mentioned above. This helps to shift the blame for the change onto the filtration bacteria, you seem to be finding their legit limits in this challenge test.

*we get to watch for speed of systemic recovery when salt is added back and even though my first prediction failed / infinite toughness of filtration bac even with hypo/ it’s still a worthy prediction your system isn’t going to take thirty days to ramp back to full ability.

I believe your thread can be a legit reference now for one form of limitation on filtration bacteria and a legit ammonia spike. We always said it would take someone unusual/ abnormal to spike it, that certainly applies here.