Hypothetical question

Crackem · Sep 1, 2015

If I had a tank that was fallow for 90 days, and had a qt tank with 2 tangs in it. If I medicated the fish properly for the recommended period of time to make sure there were no signs of disease, and it was determined that the fish were both healthy and disease free.

Once transferred to the display tank, could these fish get Ich or another disease ?

What if they fought with each other? Could they get Ich or another disease from stress?

Dan1789 · Sep 1, 2015

Only if the ich came in on something after the fish.

Humblefish · Sep 1, 2015

Fish diseases (including ich) can only be introduced into an aquarium one of two ways:

Diseased fish (solution: QT)
Anything wet (including rock/substrate/corals/inverts) taken from another aquarium with a diseased fish (solution: isolate in a fishless environment, like a frag tank, for 72 days - same as going fallow)

Most parasites, for example, have a "tomont" or “encysted stage” which sticks to rocks, shells, substrate - and even possibly corals/inverts. Think of tomonts sort of like "parasite eggs" that form after the parasites drop off the fish. These tomonts eventually rupture, releasing theronts or “free swimmers” into the water which seek out fish to infect/feed upon. If just one theront finds a fish and attaches, the life cycle starts over again. Treating with certain chemicals (such as copper) and hyposalinity (for ich only) kills theronts, thus interrupting a parasite's life cycle.

While stress/fish fighting can lower a fish's immune system and make them more susceptible to disease, these things in & of themselves cannot introduce disease into a healthy aquarium.

Crackem · Sep 1, 2015

Thank You for your responses. The reason I asked was Because I was at a Lfs and was talking to the owner that disagreed and said that stress could cause Ich no matter what basically, even if they were quarantined and treated for the appropriate amount of time.

Humblefish · Sep 1, 2015

Crackem said:
Thank You for your responses. The reason I asked was Because I was at a Lfs and was talking to the owner that disagreed and said that stress could cause Ich no matter what basically, even if they were quarantined and treated for the appropriate amount of time.

If ich is already present in your tank, then even if a fish is QT'd/treated they will get ich once exposed to it. But if everything is QT'd from Day 1 and disease is never introduced into the DT, then it cannot just manifest on its own. Maybe your LFS owner believes in the ich fairy or something.

Crackem · Sep 1, 2015

I think my Lfs and the service guy who helped me setup my new tank believe in the Ich fairy and I'm sure they're not the only ones. They also think garlic is the cure.

Wiz · Sep 1, 2015

Apparently ich could not be gotten I f it was not present for atleast 60 days. If the fish were quarentined for that long and did not have it, then it should not get it. But it is possible for the ich to not show if it is in the gills or other areas that can not be seen.

Humblefish · Sep 1, 2015

Crackem said:
I think my Lfs and the service guy who helped me setup my new tank believe in the Ich fairy and I'm sure they're not the only ones. They also think garlic is the cure.

Garlic may (or may not) be useful for ich management. Two theories:

Garlic boosts a fish's natural immune system
Garlic leaches back out of a fish's pores, making them an undesirable host for parasites to attach to. If you've ever been around someone who eats a lot of garlic their body literally reeks of it after awhile. Perhaps parasites don't like the smell/taste of it.

While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial from soaking fish food with garlic, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I would use it sparingly...

Humblefish · Sep 2, 2015

Wiz said:
I was under the impression that all fish carry ich and it is just naturally suppressed. Also that stress can and does cause it to get out of control to the point of showing as the white specks and causing health issues.so I believe it is entirely possible for healthy fish who get stressed ie transfered to show signs of ich not previously showing. Is this wrong?

In the wild, the infection rate is about 30%. However, most wild fish can survive minor outbreaks since there’s about a gazillion gallons of water diluting those parasites from the fish. In our relatively small aquariums, fish are often overwhelmed by a much higher concentration of parasites. That is why I prophylactically treat every new fish for external parasites & worms before they are placed in my DT. I want every fish to have a "clean slate" because they no longer have the numbers game in their favor, like they did living in the ocean. You can try to recreate nature and all the protection she provides, however you can never duplicate it. So IMO; it's necessary to resort to some "unnatural" tactics (like treating with copper in a QT) to protect your livestock's long-term future in a (relatively) tiny fish tank.

Crackem · Sep 17, 2015

Are theronts visible to the naked eye?

Humblefish · Sep 17, 2015

Crackem said:
Are theronts visible to the naked eye?

No life stage is visible to the naked eye. Trophonts will often cause "white spots"; but even these are not the actual parasites. They are excess mucous which builds up around the insertion point.

Crackem · Oct 11, 2015

This is a question and a response from a lfs that has a dedicated qt area in the back of the store front.

Hi
Could you tell me about your qt process? How long do you qt fish for? Do you use medication? Do you use hypo salinity? Do you use a tank transfer method? How can I be 100% sure that the fish I buy won't have ich or another disease?

Hi .. Well, first of all, I should tell you that there is almost no method that 100% guarantees disease free animals. We give our fish the best beginning possible before they leave for your house by starting with a medicated bath when new arrivals come in, then separate them in the back QT systems for an average of two weeks during which time they go under hypo conditions and, of course, close observation. But this is just the short version. If you have more questions, please feel free to give us a call and speak with us directly, or just come in for a few minutes! We're always happy to answer your questions and show you around!

Pete polyp · Oct 11, 2015

Humblefish said:
Garlic may (or may not) be useful for ich management. Two theories:

Garlic boosts a fish's natural immune system

Garlic leaches back out of a fish's pores, making them an undesirable host for parasites to attach to. If you've ever been around someone who eats a lot of garlic their body literally reeks of it after awhile. Perhaps parasites don't like the smell/taste of it.

While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial from soaking fish food with garlic, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I would use it sparingly...

I was under the impression that garlic increased the appetite of fish which makes them eat more. By eating more they are healthy enough to fight off the infection.

Humblefish · Oct 11, 2015

Crackem said:
This is a question and a response from a lfs that has a dedicated qt area in the back of the store front.

Hi
Could you tell me about your qt process? How long do you qt fish for? Do you use medication? Do you use hypo salinity? Do you use a tank transfer method? How can I be 100% sure that the fish I buy won't have ich or another disease?

Hi .. Well, first of all, I should tell you that there is almost no method that 100% guarantees disease free animals. We give our fish the best beginning possible before they leave for your house by starting with a medicated bath when new arrivals come in, then separate them in the back QT systems for an average of two weeks during which time they go under hypo conditions and, of course, close observation. But this is just the short version. If you have more questions, please feel free to give us a call and speak with us directly, or just come in for a few minutes! We're always happy to answer your questions and show you around!

Short on details. They are right about one thing though: Nothing is 100% certain. Not one thing in this life.

Humblefish · Oct 11, 2015

Pete polyp said:
I was under the impression that garlic increased the appetite of fish which makes them eat more. By eating more they are healthy enough to fight off the infection.

Theory #3 then.

Because no one knows whether or not garlic actually helps with fish diseases, and there have been no actual studies on the matter... so all we have are theories.

Pete polyp · Oct 11, 2015

Humblefish said:
Theory #3 then. Because no one knows whether or not garlic actually helps with fish diseases, and there have been no actual studies on the matter... so all we have are theories.

Yep.

I go with the @Paul B theory anymore. I freaked out the first time I had an ich outbreak and tried hypo, which killed all my fish. Anymore I just feed them, feed them again and maybe feed them a few more times. I may have a little bit of ich on new additions from time to time, but I no longer lose fish to it.

Crackem · Oct 12, 2015

People are under the impression that this store qt's their fish but from the response I got it doesn't seem like it's done correctly. That was the reason I contacted them. I was hoping if they qt'd for the right amount of time that I could just order fish from them and let them do it for me.

Pete polyp · Oct 12, 2015

Crackem said:
People are under the impression that this store qt's their fish but from the response I got it doesn't seem like it's done correctly. That was the reason I contacted them. I was hoping if they qt'd for the right amount of time that I could just order fish from them and let them do it for me.

You should assume everything in your tank is infested with the plague that will wipe everything out. Or not. ...

Humblefish · Oct 12, 2015

Crackem said:
People are under the impression that this store qt's their fish but from the response I got it doesn't seem like it's done correctly. That was the reason I contacted them. I was hoping if they qt'd for the right amount of time that I could just order fish from them and let them do it for me.

The only QT you should trust is your own. Some LFS run copper in their fish only system to control external parasites. However, they don't all test the Cu level daily to ensure it remains at or above therapeutic levels. Or the fish is not left in copper long enough for complete eradication. And then one must consider that copper does not treat worms, bacterial infections, viruses, etc.