I am about to throw in a towel

[Kungpaoshizi]

If I ever see something rtn/stn, first thing I do is dump 2-3x the normal amount of food in. Then after a few hours I'll check parameters.
Always sucks when something like this happens.

Hope things pull through!

 

[mcarroll]

Wouldn't low mag be stressful as well?

I would think so...at least as a contributor in some way.

But...there's virtually no evidence I can think of to point to low magnesium being the direct cause of an issue.

Then there's this:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2004GL021313/full

Magnesium may be used by the coral to actively control the growth of the different skeletal crystal components.

There's no reason to assume it's the case, but it's possible that low Mg affects things like that and causes stress in some way...

 

[smh254]

I use Regular Instant Ocean on all of my tanks, yeah birds nest corals are not my forte .

The only reason I asked is because I used to use reef crystals and its ALK mixed high. There were a few months that went by where my SPS would look bad for couple weeks and then come back. It took me a while to figure it out but every time I did a water change it bumped my alk and my SPS didn't like. My pc rainbow, monti caps, Alveopora and a few other SPS would lose their color and start to die. Some from the tips some form the base And the monti in the middle. I switched to IO salt mix and did smaller water changes more frequently. Haven't had anymore problems.

 

[Vaughn17]

I would think so...at least as a contributor in some way.

But...there's virtually no evidence I can think of to point to low magnesium being the direct cause of an issue.

Then there's this:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2004GL021313/full



There's no reason to assume it's the case, but it's possible that low Mg affects things like that and causes stress in some way...

Interesting article. Thanks!

 

[Macdaddynick1]

The only reason I asked is because I used to use reef crystals and its ALK mixed high. There were a few months that went by where my SPS would look bad for couple weeks and then come back. It took me a while to figure it out but every time I did a water change it bumped my alk and my SPS didn't like. My pc rainbow, monti caps, Alveopora and a few other SPS would lose their color and start to die. Some from the tips some form the base And the monti in the middle. I switched to IO salt mix and did smaller water changes more frequently. Haven't had anymore problems.

Ive used reef crystals until i got my auto-doser, then i had to move to regular IO , i think it mixes ridiculously high on alk, so there is no way to do any decent size water changes with that salt .

 

[All Delight]

Man I've had my pm colonies rtn as well. I feel for you.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

hey gentlemen, quick update 2 more of my purple monster frags RTNd . No idea what to do , ill just pour myself a drink and watch them go .

 

[mcarroll]

It's very possible there's nothing to be done at this point....damage was already done.

Regardless, with the nitrate and amino dosing I think you're doing everything that could be expected.

after i got a new board i added 90 degrees instead of 120, so i feel like even though i dialed them down to 30% , i think it was way more than my corals were use to .

And I missed this aspect on my first read for some reason - I'm willing to rule out other factors to a large degree now.

Going from blues-out to 90º optics was a drop in intensity of at least 48% followed by an increase to ABOVE NORMAL of about 30%. (Lenses also change the shape of the light....less understood, but still important.)

That's an 80% swing in lighting with significant swings in both directions.

Oxidative stress all over the place and purple monster is apparently more susceptible. Could indicate he's got a different clade of zooxanthellae.

 

[mcarroll]

Doesn't necessarily help with the situation except maybe to pass time, but did you get a chance to read any of those articles from post #38?

If you want a place to start, I think I'd read "Is the coral-algae symbiosis really 'mutuallly beneficial'..." first.

 

[Triggreef]

I just read this entire thread instead of sleeping for some reason. Some great reefers in here helping out and good ideas. I may have missed it but are you carbon dosing or running bio pellets? I'm really just posting to get updates but a few other questions...

Also have you thought about a triton test to rule out other elemental abnormalities? Thought about water quality from the source?
Possibility of any magnets leaching?
And I don't recall an answer to @Russ265 question about aefw. To me this doesn't look like light intensity trouble. Especially with all the other acro being just fine.

Do you have any algae blenny? I have one in my sump that began attacking acro after a few months. One at a time each one I pulled out, he would start on another. Only time I saw acro damage from the center like this. That screams out pest to me.

Imo, I don't see it light related. The percentages you listed don't sound like enough. I have the same lights and had the exact same issue with the blue channel. Replaced it the same way only I did not lower the intensity on the new board. Acro can take a big intensity rise especially if no3 and po4 are higher than zero. Any time I've burned any, they lightened up never just ejected flesh like yours.

 

[Vaughn17]

I read #38. Interesting hypothesis, but it's synthesized science. I wonder how many of the articles references are also synthesized and not based on primary research?

 

[Macdaddynick1]

I just read this entire thread instead of sleeping for some reason. Some great reefers in here helping out and good ideas. I may have missed it but are you carbon dosing or running bio pellets? I'm really just posting to get updates but a few other questions...

Also have you thought about a triton test to rule out other elemental abnormalities? Thought about water quality from the source?
Possibility of any magnets leaching?
And I don't recall an answer to @Russ265 question about aefw. To me this doesn't look like light intensity trouble. Especially with all the other acro being just fine.

Do you have any algae blenny? I have one in my sump that began attacking acro after a few months. One at a time each one I pulled out, he would start on another. Only time I saw acro damage from the center like this. That screams out pest to me.

Imo, I don't see it light related. The percentages you listed don't sound like enough. I have the same lights and had the exact same issue with the blue channel. Replaced it the same way only I did not lower the intensity on the new board. Acro can take a big intensity rise especially if no3 and po4 are higher than zero. Any time I've burned any, they lightened up never just ejected flesh like yours.

Yes I agree there are a lot of great replies, thanks everyone, and yes i am carbon dosing i think I am doing 1 or 2 ml of vinegar per day , which is negligible , I think doing the triton test is my next step , I make my own water , and honestly i have not considered it , i will do tds test tomorrow. As to the pests I am very positive there there aren't any , I haven't ruled out astrea starfish though, but i haven't seen any attacking my PM , No algae blenny ,

One thing i noticed today , is my wrasse is kicked up bunch of sand today and bunch of the debris went up into the pump and a lot settled on the frag rack right where most of my PM frags were , As i see the RTN during the day.

It's very possible there's nothing to be done at this point....damage was already done.

Regardless, with the nitrate and amino dosing I think you're doing everything that could be expected.



And I missed this aspect on my first read for some reason - I'm willing to rule out other factors to a large degree now.

Going from blues-out to 90º optics was a drop in intensity of at least 48% followed by an increase to ABOVE NORMAL of about 30%. (Lenses also change the shape of the light....less understood, but still important.)

That's an 80% swing in lighting with significant swings in both directions.

Oxidative stress all over the place and purple monster is apparently more susceptible. Could indicate he's got a different clade of zooxanthellae.

To be honest , at this point i haven't even had the motivation to log onto any reefing websites for the passed few days, but I'm still on the article about the nutrient and Co2 enrichment.
For now though, Im going to stick to doing slight changes, if any, Im not a fan of changing too many things at once, besides , I don't think that would be the best way to go in my situation anyways.

 

[mcarroll]

For now though, Im going to stick to doing slight changes, if any, Im not a fan of changing too many things at once, besides , I don't think that would be the best way to go in my situation anyways.

Sounds like a good plan for sure!

I'm not sure I follow on that last part though.....don't think "what" would be the best way to go?

I read #38. Interesting hypothesis, but it's synthesized science. I wonder how many of the articles references are also synthesized and not based on primary research?

That article sounds to be in the first person, probably representing the team's work....if that helps. But I'm not sure I even know what you mean.

It's not a review article or meta-analysis, if that's what you mean.

Either way, can you elaborate on what you meant and why it would be significant?

 

[Vaughn17]

Sounds like a good plan for sure!

I'm not sure I follow on that last part though.....don't think "what" would be the best way to go?

That article sounds to be in the first person, probably representing the team's work....if that helps. But I'm not sure I even know what you mean.

It's not a review article or meta-analysis, if that's what you mean.

Either way, can you elaborate on what you meant and why it would be significant?

It says it's a review of recent research on the topic:
In this paper, I review recent research into the climate-induced breakdown of this important symbiosis (namely ‘coral bleaching’) that challenges the validity of this long-standing
belief.

Synthesized science is commonly used to create white papers and other so-called BAS (best available science) in my home state (WA). In my field, someone will come up with a "working hypothesis" such as "the world is flat," then cherry pick reference material, much of which may also be synthesized in order to prove their theory. No primary (actual) research is conducted. I'm always a little suspicious of synthesized science (especially if it is produced by government agencies) as there is a tendency for the author to be biased in favor of his or her working hypothesis. Plus, reference material can also be synthesized science (SS), so that it is possible to be reading a science paper, white paper, etc. that references primarily SS, that references primarily SS, and so on. That said, the article in question is wonderful and references actual research. Plus, it is quite clear about what is factual and what is the author's opinion. In this case the author is honestly trying to expand our knowledge of corals. So thanks for the references Mcarroll!

 

[mcarroll]

I see what you mean - thanks for elaborating!

(I actually had the "Fast growth..." article in mind for some reason...too many of these articles floating around my noggin at once. )

I think you have to be circumspect about being told what to believe in either type of paper...individual research projects are also easily slanted or compromised.

I'd presume most papers are at least slanted or compromised, in fact....it's human. Sometimes it's as simple as some product placements. (e.g. "This test was completed on an ACME Spinner Model 504 with a Gable XL stirring rod, then baked in a Mattel Easy Bake Oven...") Ok, too much detail to make sense, but no worry to me. Worry when you can't see the bias. That just means someone took the time to erase or otherwise conceal the bias. That's often the point of a review or meta analysis I think - to weed out those slants...or to see other trends.

That said, the article in question is wonderful and references actual research. Plus, it is quite clear about what is factual and what is the author's opinion. In this case the author is honestly trying to expand our knowledge of corals. So thanks for the references Mcarroll!

It's one of my favorites so far! I like anything I can find that confirms how little I/we really know about these animals!!