I dont understand....(burnt tips/dying acros)

[Johnson556]

Tank is a year old, rock/gravel/etc is almost 3 years old. There is an abundance of sponges in all cryptic areas and there has been no Alk spike in over 8 months. Dino's/Cyano have been gone for almost 60 days. Lights have not been adjusted, changed for over 6 months and T5's are less than 8 months old. Lighting is six 80W T5's (2Pm-8Pm) and 3 Kessil a360w at 50% max intensity from 2Pm-7Pm with a 3 hour ramp up and down each way. For the past 40 days I have only ran a filter sock, skimmer, and algae turf scrubber, before that I ran ROX 0.8 Carbon, never had an issue with it the 2+ years prior. Flow is 4 MP40's at reef crest 100%. RODI is always 0 TDS and I have tested for chlorine/chloramines which are fine. I have two buddies right down the street on the same water with thriving acro tanks.

I dose 65ML of ESV 2-Part throughout the course of the day (Neptune Dos)

Salinity - 35PPT
NO3 - 4PPM
PO4 - 0.01
Alk - 7.5 (was 8.1 a month ago but I have slowly been bringing it down week by week)
Calcium - 430PPM
Temp - 77

So I am at a point where I have no idea whats going on. There has to be something I'm doing that I don't know I'm doing wrong. I tossed all my sticks 4 months ago from an AEFW infestation, cant believe my 6 wrasse could take care of those for me...I went SPS free for over 70 days. Ran a few smooth skin acro tester pieces for a month in various areas of the tank and no signs of AEFW. Began to add sticks again and everything seemed be taking off like never before. My tank does grows coralline at an obnoxious pace, constantly have to clean my mp40's.

In December I finally had my nitrates detectable and in a few months time got them from zero to 3-4PPM steady. PO4 with 4 cubes a day was still low/undetectable (0.00-0.01) on my hanna/salifter/redsea tests. So I had the bright idea of dosing PO4 with seachem flourish. Completed overdid it an shot parameters to 0.08 over night and was back to 0.02 in 36 hours. Tank inhaled it, combine this with a "hot water change" (30 gallons at about 82 degrees) and everything was ticked.

I came back from a 2 day trip to burnt tips everywhere, bonsai/setosa/green slimer/pink lemonade/bubblegum Milli. I did not touch anything after this, actually reduced my lights from 55% intensity to 50% to give them a little bit. Got some STN on a few pieces which some I clipped/dipped others I left alone. I eventually lost the milli and green slimer.

Around 25 days after the phosphate debacle I snagged a few more pieces for the tank, PC rainbow/Upscale Macroladous/Green Slimer colony/Hawkins echinata. All parameters were stable at this point and these pieces came from a tank with essentially the exact same lighting set up as mine except he had his kessils at 100%. Within days, I start seeing burnt tips???? Slimer being effected the worst, followed by the echinata and PC rainbow. The upscale seems to be thriving and encrusting but everything else. I'm killing a green slimer in a "stable tank" how is this possible....

I am at loss for words, there has to be something I'm doing or an external factor I am not aware of. Any advise helps. I grow coralline like crazy and all my LPS is thriving. There are no more pests. I dip and examine everything with a magnifying glass before it enters the tank. Small things I think of that others say should not matter but just want to mention, I use fleece filter socks that I swap out weekly. They are washed in just bleach with an extra rinse cycle, once that is done I do another rinse cycle and leave out to dry. Before I put them in the tank I rinse in the sink and then dunk in RODI a few times. The skimmer also have an airline from outside but I cant see any contamination from that.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I like my alk no higher than 7. A couple weeks ago I actually pulled my skimmer out because my nutrients were so low.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I like the nylon filter socks. I just rinse them in the sink and last for months

 

[jda]

Unless you are removing phosphate and nitrate with organic carbon, GFO, LC, etc., then they cannot be too low. If you are doing any of these things, then they can be. Don't worry about them unless they get high... even 1 ppb of phosphate is not growth limiting for acropora.

I would turn the kessils down to 25% and let the T5s do all of the heavy lifting... Kessils have never been accused of being awesome acropora lights, but they are OK. LED plus wandering parameters can be a recipe for burn and STN - not so much with other light sources.

If you have not double checked your refractometer lately, then this is a good idea. I am sure that it is fine, but just in case...

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

The t5's should light that tank well. up to 24" wide. Any chance the Kessils are just nuking the coral? what are your tank dimensions? How's your Mag?

 

[Johnson556]

Tank is a standard 180G, Mag is at 1500 according to Red sea which reads high.

I also calibrate my refractometer before every use.

 

[Johnson556]

Now I'm completely making this up but, is there any chance there is some harmful bacteria in the water that I cannot detect that causing all of this chaos? I cant think of anything else.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

Maybe. Did you add anything prior to the issues starting? Have you tried an ATI test? I say ATI because they test RO/DI also. Check all equipment for stray voltage, and corrosion.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

BTW Im no sps guru. I would hope some others may chime in.

 

[Johnson556]

I'm about to purchase an ICP test and UV sterilizer. What an expensive morning.....

 

[ajhudson15]

I would check for stray voltage as well. Have you used a par meter yet to see where your at?

 

[Kevin Duprey]

In December I finally had my nitrates detectable and in a few months time got them from zero to 3-4PPM steady. PO4 with 4 cubes a day was still low/undetectable (0.00-0.01) on my hanna/salifter/redsea tests. So I had the bright idea of dosing PO4 with seachem flourish. Completed overdid it an shot parameters to 0.08 over night and was back to 0.02 in 36 hours. Tank inhaled it, combine this with a "hot water change" (30 gallons at about 82 degrees) and everything was ******

Not trying to be mean, but you describe this as a stable tank, and this paragraph implies anything but stability... Spiking PO4 from near zero to 0.08 and back to 0.02 in 48 hours on that volume of water is a significant change. In my experience FWIW, burnt tips and STN are almost always associated with nutrient swings rather than alkalinity swings or excessive lighting (though both can exacerbate the situation...). It's highly unlikely that a bunch of sticks can consume that much PO4 in that little time. More likely than not, especially given the hot water change, you experienced a bacterial bloom, and some of those bacteria were harmful to the SPS (STN is almost always caused by bacterial infection). If this is the case, there is no quick cure. UV might help, but it doesn't really kill bacteria, just mutates it and renders it incapable of reproducing. Your best bet is to slowly start adding beneficial bacteria to out compete the harmful variants. Prodibio has worked well for me in situations like this in the past. If you go this route, be very watchful of your nutrients during this time as the added bacteria will consume it, and you could make matters worse if you crash nutrients. Be prepared to dose both Nitrate and Phosphate lightly as needed to maintain levels, or shut off skimming, etc.

Long term, do you have a refugium or algae scrubber? I was in a similar situation to what you describe for a while on my previous tank. I finally gained some semblance of true stability and growth when I added a fuge on a reverse light cycle. Chemical means of controlling nutrients (GFO, other options) never worked for me. I would have nutrient swings and SPS would suffer. Once I got the fuge running stable, my nutrients stabilized as well. I do occasionally need to dose NO3 if I don't harvest my chaeto ball regularly enough, but that's way more controllable, and rarely leads to a bacterial bloom. The other benefit of a fuge is the biodiversity it brings. There are a ton of critters (amphipods, copepods and worms) crawling around in my soccer-ball sized chaeto mass and the rubble rocks below it. I'm a firm believer in the KISS and natural as possible approach. Biodiversity is massive on thriving wild reefs. It should be in our tanks as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[Johnson556]

I would check for stray voltage as well. Have you used a par meter yet to see where your at?

Tested for stray voltage, no issues there. Par was tested when Kessils were at 90%, there now at 40% so no way its a par issue if anything I'm not giving them enough light at this point although I doubt that. Even at 40%, the six 80W T5's should be more than enough on their own

 

[Kevin Duprey]

I would check for stray voltage as well. Have you used a par meter yet to see where your at?

Stray voltage is another possibility I wouldn't rule out. Do you have a ground probe?

PAR meter would be helpful to know where your starting at, but I've found SPS to be very tolerant and adaptable to very different lighting (just not rapid changes...). As an example, I had STN and burnt tips on one of my acros under 200 PAR. That same acro that survived and has recovered is now thriving under nearly 400 PAR. It's really a combination of parameters. Low nutrients, high Alk, and high PAR are a recipe for trouble, and combined with a bacteria bloom can be devastating, but any one on its own is generally not a killer. Certainly if the coral is stressed, lowering the lighting temporarily can reduce that stress, but does not imply that it was too high to begin with.

 

[Johnson556]

Not trying to be mean, but you describe this as a stable tank, and this paragraph implies anything but stability... Spiking PO4 from near zero to 0.08 and back to 0.02 in 48 hours on that volume of water is a significant change. In my experience FWIW, burnt tips and STN are almost always associated with nutrient swings rather than alkalinity swings or excessive lighting (though both can exacerbate the situation...). It's highly unlikely that a bunch of sticks can consume that much PO4 in that little time. More likely than not, especially given the hot water change, you experienced a bacterial bloom, and some of those bacteria were harmful to the SPS (STN is almost always caused by bacterial infection). If this is the case, there is no quick cure. UV might help, but it doesn't really kill bacteria, just mutates it and renders it incapable of reproducing. Your best bet is to slowly start adding beneficial bacteria to out compete the harmful variants. Prodibio has worked well for me in situations like this in the past. If you go this route, be very watchful of your nutrients during this time as the added bacteria will consume it, and you could make matters worse if you crash nutrients. Be prepared to dose both Nitrate and Phosphate lightly as needed to maintain levels, or shut off skimming, etc.

Long term, do you have a refugium or algae scrubber? I was in a similar situation to what you describe for a while on my previous tank. I finally gained some semblance of true stability and growth when I added a fuge on a reverse light cycle. Chemical means of controlling nutrients (GFO, other options) never worked for me. I would have nutrient swings and SPS would suffer. Once I got the fuge running stable, my nutrients stabilized as well. I do occasionally need to dose NO3 if I don't harvest my chaeto ball regularly enough, but that's way more controllable, and rarely leads to a bacterial bloom. The other benefit of a fuge is the biodiversity it brings. There are a ton of critters (amphipods, copepods and worms) crawling around in my soccer-ball sized chaeto mass and the rubble rocks below it. I'm a firm believer in the KISS and natural as possible approach. Biodiversity is massive on thriving wild reefs. It should be in our tanks as well.

Hope this helps.

My tank has been stable for the past 6+ months with the exception of those 3 days with the PO4 spike/drop and water change. I was dosing a small amount of Microbacter7 after the spike with the same thought process of what you stated with Prodibio. Dont think it did anything.

I only run an algae turf scrubber, filter sock and skimmer. Scrape the ATS down every week or two leaving a fair amount behind. I Haven't ran Carbon for a month, may run some today due to potential heavy metal contamination from seachems flourish/mp40 wet side. Possible but unlikely since I dosed that over 100+ gallons in water changes ago.

 

[madweazl]

I wouldnt suspect the lighting and disagree with JDA in regard to Kessils ability to grow SPS (they work fine over our tank). I do agree that a measurable amount of NO3 and PO4 is enough for them to grow, however. Ditch the filter socks for a few weeks and see if coral health improves to eliminate chlorine as a possible issue (I havent used them in about two years and have no reason to start again).

Are you sure nothing else happened around the same time as your "hot water" change and the unintended phosphate over dose? The warm water change would have very little impact to the corals and especially the overall tank volume so I'd think that to be no factor. The increase in phospates is pretty small as well so I cant help but to think something else happened during that same period (or just prior to it). I've gone from .2ppm to .03ppm PO4 over night with no observable impact to our acroporas (actually, polyp extension was a bit better at the lower levels) using GFO. It's possible the corals can deal with a decrease better than an increase so attempting to draw some parallel there may not be applicable (the delta is still minor however).

Where are the MP40s mounted? I have two MP40s on a 75g that are run at 100%; 180g is a lot of tank for four MP40s.

 

[Johnson556]

Here’s a quick reference as to where par was when I have kessils peaking at 90%, moved them down to 60% for a while and only recently rudiced more due to this tip issue. The part photo is from June, the second photo is from two weeks ago.

 

[BestMomEver]

Ok... this may be a stretch but it’s another “what the heck just happened “ scenario that, along with other weird things, is worth considering. In the early 2000s we had a 300 gallon reef tank with huge SPS colonies and a school of large healthy fish. We had a purple rimmed green cap that was the size of a basketball. One morning I got up and the cap was dead...completely.... overnight. I tested, I searched, I did a water change. I did everything I knew I to do. Over the next 48 hours, everything (some fish too) in the tank died. We started dismantling the tank and found a power cord that was unplugged but draping into the sump. Weeks earlier we had tossed a tiny urchin into that section of the sump and he had eaten the plastic coating off the wire, exposing the copper which then leached into the water. In all these years, I’ve never bought another urchin.

Moral of the story..... when everything looks normal, start looking for stuff that is just plain weird. Impossible stuff. I hope you figure this out, cause it sucks when things go south. I’ve been there. Best of luck to you!

 

[Johnson556]

Ok... this may be a stretch but it’s another “what the heck just happened “ scenario that, along with other weird things, is worth considering. In the early 2000s we had a 300 gallon reef tank with huge SPS colonies and a school of large healthy fish. We had a purple rimmed green cap that was the size of a basketball. One morning I got up and the cap was dead...completely.... overnight. I tested, I searched, I did a water change. I did everything I knew I to do. Over the next 48 hours, everything (some fish too) in the tank died. We started dismantling the tank and found a power cord that was unplugged but draping into the sump. Weeks earlier we had tossed a tiny urchin into that section of the sump and he had eaten the plastic coating off the wire, exposing the copper which then leached into the water. In all these years, I’ve never bought another urchin.

Moral of the story..... when everything looks normal, start looking for stuff that is just plain weird. Impossible stuff. I hope you figure this out, cause it sucks when things go south. I’ve been there. Best of luck to you!

I enjoyed that story and will now spend hours tonight looking at every square inch of the tank with a flashlight. Thanks

 

[ajhudson15]

I know you said you rodi is 0 tds but have you tested the water while its in your storage container. I had that issue once wiht a container that wasn't food grade and leached a lot of "stuff" into the water. Carbon is also helpful at removing any chemical warfare that might be happening if you think that's a chance also.