I need help keeping SPS! Im stumped!

[TheWB]

Ap9x - I run at max 40% for about 2 hours and ramp up and down over 12 hous at a mounting hight of about 16 inches. I'll ask our Facebook group who has a par meter I could rent or borrow.

What made you choose this particular lighting schedule?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yes. Tons of reefers with sps tanks carbon dose. I did try stopping but it was disruptive to my tank and started back up. I don't think you can argue with the success many reefers have had with carbon dosing.

Yeah yeah. What do I know. I tried
Good luck to you then

 

[lazlodawg]

Ap9x - I run at max 40% for about 2 hours and ramp up and down over 12 hous at a mounting hight of about 16 inches. I'll ask our Facebook group who has a par meter I could rent or borrow.

That's probably not high enough. I have an AP9X about 14 inches off the water on a Red Sea 300xl and have max intensity at 100٪ to get the par and spread needed for SPS. I think it ends up being 250 -400 par for most of the coral but drops off to 150 at the sand on the edges at that setting for me. I also have 100 violets during max intensity as well. It ramps up and down from that with a 12 hr photoperiod.

 

[Discordian]

A quick google search shows someone with a AP9X, 12 inches above the surface, giving PAR readings of 150-220 at full power.

Now this is only a google search so it could be complete rubbish, but if that is true then running it at 16 inches and 40% may or may not be powerful enough (even though some Montis prefer medium light).

Again, I’m not saying this is correct, but may be something to look at.

That is interesting, that is very different from the brs video. They have it at 350 at a 10 inch mounting hight at 50%. Is this how an sps coral would die from lack of light?

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Yeah... I should probably work on that...

Here's a tank upgrade but the system has only been around for 6months but with mostly k.p live rock and some live rock from my big system. The only thing the k.p is doing is keeping n03p04 stabil to high (.13p04 and 5.0n03 today) but I had the system with sps in it from day one or 2.

There is usually something overlooked the hardest part is listing everything you can think of and see it yourself. Don't chase others

 

[Miami Reef]

@Charlie’s Frags I love Charlie’s system! I think he gave excellent recommendations for your SPS corals. I also personally recommend natural sea water levels when you are keeping under 0.03ppm phosphates. In general I do believe acros survive better when kept around 7dkh, but that’s just me.

 

[Discordian]

Yeah yeah. What do I know. I tried
Good luck to you then

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to be rude and appreciate your efforts to help. But surely you agree there are successful sps keepers that carbon dose. Honestly just changing the way I manage nutrients was disrupting my tank. I appreciate any advice or suggestions anyone offers.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Discordian

This was the miscommunication issue:

Are you still using Bacto balance? And elima np?

Yes. Tons of reefers with sps tanks carbon dose. I did try stopping but it was disruptive to my tank and started back up. I don't think you can argue with the success many reefers have had with carbon dosing.

Charlie was recommending to either lower alk or to raise phosphates. He was asking if you were still carbon dosing (a form of nutrient reduction) and you got defensive.

It seems like you really want to continue carbon dosing, which is fine. Nobody said to stop, but you asked why your SPS are dying on you, and high alk with low nutrients is why. So either bump up nutrients, or lower alk.

Don’t make too many changes at once, so choose the fix this issue, and then give it some time and see if the issue persists.

I do recommend a par meter for all reefers who want to keep SPS. Instead of guessing, just tune it right the first time, and leave lighting alone for good.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to be rude and appreciate your efforts to help. But surely you agree there are successful sps keepers that carbon dose. Honestly just changing the way I manage nutrients was disrupting my tank. I appreciate any advice or suggestions anyone offers.

Who uses it?
Wwc- nope
Top shelf-nope
Cherry corals-nope
Jason fox-nope
Loving reef Orlando-nope
Farmerty-nope
Bubbaque-nope
Speed reefer corals-nope
Mythical corals-nope
Bkchem-nope
Thirsty reef-nope
Coral collectors-nope
Tck-nope

Should I go on?

Carbon dosing is for heavily stocked systems that can not manage nutrients. It’s not for chasing some magic residual number on a Hanna checker. Same goes for gfo. Combine that with a higher alk than recommended and you’ve got sps stress/death. I hate nopox but at least they try to lead ppl in the right direction, even though no body pays attention, on the bottle label. They recommend 0.08-0.12 Po4 for sps frags.

 

[FishyFishFish]

That is interesting, that is very different from the brs video. They have it at 350 at a 10 inch mounting hight at 50%. Is this how an sps coral would die from lack of light?

I’ve just quickly watched the video. The BRS setting was 55% at 10 inches (which is pretty much what you said) but that was for a target of 200-350 PAR. Your light is 16 inches, which makes a noticeable difference (as does running at 40% v 55%).

You also mention 2 hours? Is that only 2 hours at 40%?

I’m not saying that is your issue, and as I say I am also struggling with Montis, but it might be something to look at.

There is also other info missing from this thread. e.g. how big is the tank? How many AP9X’s? What are you using for flow etc?

I’m still interested in the Alk/PO4 ratio if anyone would care to answer? I’ve heard of a Nitrate/PO4 ratio (but haven’t really looked into it) but haven’t heard of a Alk/PO4 ratio and I’m genuinely keen to learn.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Charlie’s Frags

I personally don’t see anything wrong with striving for lower nutrients, so long as alk matches that lower number. Many different ways to run a tank. I also don’t see anything wrong with carbon dosing either. Maybe OP can slightly lower the dose so phosphates can rise to 0.03ppm? That’s a good compromise.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

@Charlie’s Frags

I personally don’t see anything wrong with striving for lower nutrients, so long as alk matches that lower number. Many different ways to run a tank. I also don’t see anything wrong with carbon dosing either. Maybe OP can slightly lower the dose so phosphates can rise to 0.03ppm? That’s a good compromise.

I agree a lower alk with 0.01 Po4 or po4 closer to 0.1 is better but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the carbon dosing. It’s typically not needed. Fine with lps softies etc but it stresses sps out if the system doesn’t have the bio load to support it. I drank the “lower nutrients are better” cool aid and all it did was cost me thousands of dollars in sps death. Stopped chasing and sps stopped dying.

 

[Discordian]

@Charlie’s Frags

I personally don’t see anything wrong with striving for lower nutrients, so long as alk matches that lower number. Many different ways to run a tank. I also don’t see anything wrong with carbon dosing either. Maybe OP can slightly lower the dose so phosphates can rise to 0.03ppm? That’s a good compromise.

The only reason I don't want to stop is because when I tried last time it recked havoc on my tank. I tried to follow your advice and I lost corals (this was my fault for not slowly backing off) but basically my nutrients shot up. I totally believe it is possible to manage nutrients without carbon dosing, but the reality is that is how I am currently doing it. It works well for me (and others). I honestly had no idea there was a relationship between where you have alk and nutrients. I am here to learn.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

And find a par meter. The brs videos are helpful but don’t represent par very well
Not in my experience

 

[happyhourhero]

I also vote to raise phosphates. .10 is always where I try to be. .01 is wayyyy too close to 0 and 0 is bad news bears.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Still no answer to my question about Alk/PO4 ratios; just lots of number quoting.

I guess it will give me something to research though. If anyone could point me to some good articles that would be appreciated.

 

[happyhourhero]

Still no answer to my question about Alk/PO4 ratios; just lots of number quoting.

I guess it will give me something to research though. If anyone could point me to some good articles that would be appreciated.

I always thought the higher alk made skeletal growth outpace tissue growth which caused the burnt/bleached tips.

 

[Miami Reef]

Still no answer to my question about Alk/PO4 ratios; just lots of number quoting.

I guess it will give me something to research though. If anyone could point me to some good articles that would be appreciated.

Not so much of a ratio. All I know is if phosphates<0.03 then alk shouldn’t be higher than 8dkh.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Not so much of a ratio. All I know is if phosphates<0.03 then alk shouldn’t be higher than 8dkh.

Thanks, could you please explain why?

If it’s to do with relative skeletal/tissue growth (as mentioned above) then does nitrate factor into this as well?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

The only reason I don't want to stop is because when I tried last time it recked havoc on my tank. I tried to follow your advice and I lost corals (this was my fault for not slowly backing off) but basically my nutrients shot up. I totally believe it is possible to manage nutrients without carbon dosing, but the reality is that is how I am currently doing it. It works well for me (and others). I honestly had no idea there was a relationship between where you have alk and nutrients. I am here to learn.

I find that really hard to believe. I’ve had sps, lps, gorgonians etc in 70 no3/ 0.60 Po4 before with no problems. Not much growth but zero death.

Fast forward to about the 25 min mark