I really wish....

[ycnibrc]

I think someone already beat us to it...

Lol can u buy it and teach me later bro. I trade u bluefin tuna I'm going tuna fishing in 2 weeks

 

[SeaDweller]

Lol can u buy it and teach me later bro. I trade u bluefin tuna I'm going tuna fishing in 2 weeks

I can only help you if your tank contains strains of baller tri colored tenuis.

 

[ycnibrc]

I can only help you if your tank contains strains of baller tri colored tenuis.

Tenius is reserve to expert only I'm a begginer sticking to stag hahahaha

 

[melanotaenia]

Charging people for a Powerpoint?

What a load of crap.

It pains me to see that people would actually pay for the advice experts here would gladly provide.

 

[mrpizzaface]

R2R has gone a long way to make this board friendly to advertisers and beginners, and in the process it has alienated more experienced reefers, and done a disservice to beginners as it is seemingly more difficult to get good advice or find relevant experience. There seems to be a money driven approach at work that is more self interested, rather than interested in the advancement of the hobby or success of the newer reefer (even though it pretends to be). Just an opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[92Miata]

So we judge the whole community based off of some stubborn ones? I think you and I have different definitions of seasoned, I think a seasoned reefer understands different stages (understands being the key word), has the experience solving problems, and has a proven track record(like the tank they keep). The seasoned reefer you described sounds a little cocky(yes they are out there too).

I'm not saying we judge the community - I'm saying that allowing only people with gorgeous established tanks to answer questions in the newbie forum (or any forum) Is a terrible idea.

It's not that the seasoned reefer is cocky, it's just that when they have an issue in their tank, it's almost always a completely different thing than when a newbie has a similar looking issue.

IE, a hair algae outbreak in a 2 month old tank is a very different thing than a hair algae outbreak in a 2 year old tank or a 10 year old tank - and the advice that the guy with the 10 year old tank has used in his last couple algae outbreaks is often not suitable for a new tank.

The best person to give advice to the guy with a hair algae outbreak in his 2 month old tank is the guy with the 4 month old tank who no longer has hair algae.

 

[mrpizzaface]

I'm not saying we judge the community - I'm saying that allowing only people with gorgeous established tanks to answer questions in the newbie forum (or any forum) Is a terrible idea.

It's not that the seasoned reefer is cocky, it's just that when they have an issue in their tank, it's almost always a completely different thing than when a newbie has a similar looking issue.

IE, a hair algae outbreak in a 2 month old tank is a very different thing than a hair algae outbreak in a 2 year old tank or a 10 year old tank - and the advice that the guy with the 10 year old tank has used in his last couple algae outbreaks is often not suitable for a new tank.

The best person to give advice to the guy with a hair algae outbreak in his 2 month old tank is the guy with the 4 month old tank who no longer has hair algae.

what if the hair algae remedy you used at two months, ends up killing your tank at 6 months? You wouldn't know the advice you were giving was bad, because you only have 4 months of experience.

 

[jda]

I’m not sure if what and why things were removed but you sound super passionate about this and I would love to talk to you about becoming more involved. You interested?

I don't expect you to know everything that happens on your board. This is not feasible. You have to trust the people that the decided to trust.

I am interested in the hobby and seeing it thrive for years to come. I have been involved and will continue to be involved in many capacities, but my focus will always be on the hobby first. Anything that does this makes me happy and I am excited to help with and am open to any discussion.

 

[stephj03]

OP (Me) is not looking for acro/sps advice

Sorry that came across poorly. I wasn't referencing you, I know your not looking for advice. I was refferencing the OP's on some of the threads you try to help out on.

Was trying to say that when you share the right ppl are there and are listening and benefiting even when they aren't the person you are directly interacting with.

 

[92Miata]

what if the hair algae remedy you used at two months, ends up killing your tank at 6 months? You wouldn't know the advice you were giving was bad, because you only have 4 months of experience.

If you're doing the same thing in a 6 month old reef tank that you're doing in a 2 month old reef tank, you're going to have a lot of problems - because a new reef tank basically changes every month. Coral/algae/sponge biomass is hugely stabilizing - and new tanks don't have that.

People who only have established tanks will tell you to go slow with everything - when this is often terrible advice with a new tank- new tanks are fundamentally unbalanced - essentially a series of dozens of contentious relationships/biological battles/etc and reacting quickly is often the difference between stopping one outbreak, and moving on to the next stage of maturation. Telling someone to "feed less and just wait out the hair algae" - which I see a ton of - often just leads to it spreading uncontrollably - whereas being aggressive often gives coralline a chance to gain a foothold and prevents the hair algae outbreak.

The point is that the causes of problems in a new tank are very different than the causes in an old tank - and having an old tank - no matter how spectacular - doesn't make you an expert in the problems of new tanks - because they're completely different ecosystems. I think its hard to overstate how dramatically different a 5 year old reef tank is from a 6 month old tank, and how different the nutrient flow is - and how much that affects changes made to the tank.


Which means that having an old tank (or the beauty of such tank) is terrible criteria for which to filter people who give advice to newbies.

(Let me give an analogy here - Who is the better driving teacher for your 16 year old kid - the driver's ed teacher at the local highschool, or the F1 driver? Its the driver's ed teacher - because he's operating in the same environment as the 16 year old kid, and frequently sees the same situations as the kid will run into. Whereas the F1 driver has ridiculously better reaction times and muscle memory than your kid, is frequently doing things that would be incredibly dangerous for your kid to try because he doesn't have the reactions/muscle memory/etc, and hasn't driven a car that handles like a Toyota Camry in 20 years )

 

[stephj03]

Wasn’t trying to this time. Just trying to get the new comers up to speed

Just a bit presumptuous no? Maybe ask to clarify first?

 

[JoshH]

I'm not saying we judge the community - I'm saying that allowing only people with gorgeous established tanks to answer questions in the newbie forum (or any forum) Is a terrible idea.

It's not that the seasoned reefer is cocky, it's just that when they have an issue in their tank, it's almost always a completely different thing than when a newbie has a similar looking issue.

IE, a hair algae outbreak in a 2 month old tank is a very different thing than a hair algae outbreak in a 2 year old tank or a 10 year old tank - and the advice that the guy with the 10 year old tank has used in his last couple algae outbreaks is often not suitable for a new tank.

The best person to give advice to the guy with a hair algae outbreak in his 2 month old tank is the guy with the 4 month old tank who no longer has hair algae.

The issue with this train of thinking is you forget that while you are absolutely right. Issues in a 10yo tank can be vastly different than a 2 month old tank. The reefer who has the 10yo tank more than likely had to deal with the same, or similar issues the 2 month tank owner is experiencing with there own tank. And they found a way to resolve those issues that then lead to a successful reef 10 years down the road. They then can share what happened to work for them to lead to such a successful tank so many years later.

Someone who has had a tank for 4 months and beaten back the issues of a 2 month tank, still only has 4 months under there belt and can't really speak for long term success with even the method they used to resolve the issue. Who knows in another month the 4 month tank might be right back to where the 2 month tank is, maybe that reefer then gave up at that point. It's hard to say the success of a particular methodology in solving an issue when there is no long term evidence it worked..

Edit, your analogy doesn't really relate here either. A better analogy to the situation at hand using your exmple would be who would you trust more to teach your 16yo how to drive, an 18yo or a driving instructor?

JMO ofcourse

I do completely agree that someone with 4 months experience can certainly still be more than helpful to someone at the 2 month stage than no one atall. And I'm not saying that because they only have 4 months experience they shouldn't be helping out. Just that they only help with things they have only experienced for themselves or by directing someone they may know has knowledge on a particular topic. There are better ways to help than just parroting something they read somewhere without having any personal experience with that they are talking about.

 

[Brew12]

The best person to give advice to the guy with a hair algae outbreak in his 2 month old tank is the guy with the 4 month old tank who no longer has hair algae.

I would argue that the best person to give advice to the guy with the hair algae outbreak is someone who has done the research into understanding why what he recommends was successful. I think it also works if someone has done research on a product that may treat hair algae and, while they may not understand how the product works, they understand how it should be used.
To me, either of those is more valuable than someone who had a hair algae problem and got it cleaned up by following advice without knowing why that advice worked.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Just a bit presumptuous no? Maybe ask to clarify first?

Come again? Presumptuous to what? I’m starting to get dizzy with all the directions this thread is going

 

[rob s.]

so i must say as a relative new reefer i am amazed at what some seasoned reefers say out of pure arrogance. I love coming here and exploring others experiences ect but am, at times, turned off by some of the snobby or cant be bothered replies i read from time to time. If you don't want advice don't ask. If the advice you get doesn't fit in your parameters of who should give advice ignore it. If you see some advice that's wrong from your own experiences then by all means jump in and say something. Labeling some one a Noob is about one of the most immature and once again frankly arrogant comments i see. I'll stick to asking, learning, and offering advice when i can but i just don't see the necessity that some of the long time members have of back handedly or round about way of saying "you know nothing your new so don't bother trying to help". It just silly and un needed.

 

[SeaDweller]

Come again? Presumptuous to what? I’m starting to get dizzy with all the directions this thread is going

How many times do I have to tell you? You set the cloud coverage to be only 39.95% of the additive intensity, then making sure the UV channel goes unfiltered to make sure it can penetrate thru the dense microbial population that is inhabiting your water column, thus the simulation of Zeovit in your tank is unrivaled to be that of the 97% composition of water in your saltwater in your tank to allow the flux capacitation of your skimmer to skim properly, enhancing the bio-removatation of the waste limiting capacity of the macro algatation in your designated sump area, and never forgetting to add the extra supplementation of Zeoxanthanium.

 

[stephj03]

Come again? Presumptuous to what? I’m starting to get dizzy with all the directions this thread is going

Agree,

Back on topic, expert badge or no, ppl who are really trying to learn aren't having many problems finding reliable info IMO. Your voice and that of others is loud enough for the right ears.

For those that don't have the right ears, bad advice serves to get them back to easier hobbies sooner rather than later.

 

[92Miata]

The reefer who has the 10yo tank more than likely had to deal with the same, or similar issues the 2 month tank owner is experiencing.

Absolutely.

But, as a human being, I question the ability of said reefer to *accurately* recall exactly how they dealt with such issue, and what the lessons from such issue are - and to have internalized those lessons when they are often directly at odds with how the reef tank they've been keeping for the last 9 years behaves.

Again - I'm not saying newbies should be giving advice - I'm saying that *recent* experience is drastically more valuable than old experience - especially given the differences with live/dry rock between now and then, and the availability of bottled bacteria.

Someone who has a beautiful tank, but hasn't set up a new tank in a decade isn't a great source of advice for someone setting up a new tank.

And they found a way to resolve those issues that then lead to a successful reef 10 years down the road. They then can share what happened to work for them to lead to such a successful tank so many years later.

Not necessarily.

Having a nice tank doesn't mean that you got to that state on an optimal, or even good path. Plenty of people on here with gorgeous tanks got there making every mistake possible - and if they started over - would make most of the same mistakes. Experience just means having done something - not having done it well or understood it.

Older tanks are fundamentally more stable than newer tanks - and if you do everything wrong - you'll still end up at 5 years with a tank that's fundamentally stable and can keep most things - but with no fundamental understanding of *why* it took your tank 5 years to get to that point - and what you could have done differently. That's how we get people saying things like "Oh, having lots of stuff die in the first year is normal."


Almost everyone who stays in the hobby long enough, and keeps a single tank up long enough gets there. The difference is that if you do it right - in 2 years you're having to do massive renovations because you've got corals growing out of the water, and if you do it wrong, you're sitting there 5 years later with a pretty tank and telling people that SPS grow really slow.

I would argue that the best person to give advice to the guy with the hair algae outbreak is someone who has done the research into understanding why what he recommends was successful. I think it also works if someone has done research on a product that may treat hair algae and, while they may not understand how the product works, they understand how it should be used.
To me, either of those is more valuable than someone who had a hair algae problem and got it cleaned up by following advice without knowing why that advice worked.

Nobody is arguing otherwise.

I'm arguing that having a pretty tank is not a good indicator for actually understands nutrient flows and reef chemistry.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

How many times do I have to tell you? You set the cloud coverage to be only 39.95% of the additive intensity, then making sure the UV channel goes unfiltered to make sure it can penetrate thru the dense microbial population that is inhabiting your water column, thus the simulation of Zeovit in your tank is unrivaled to be that of the 97% composition of water in your saltwater in your tank to allow the flux capacitation of your skimmer to skim properly, enhancing the bio-removatation of the waste limiting capacity of the macro algatation in your designated sump area, and never forgetting to add the extra supplementation of Zeoxanthanium.

Can someone tell me how to add GIF images. I’ve got a good one for this rascal

 

[stephj03]

The issue with this train of thinking is you forget that while you are absolutely right. Issues in a 10yo tank can be vastly different than a 2 month old tank. The reefer who has the 10yo tank more than likely had to deal with the same, or similar issues the 2 month tank owner is experiencing with there own tank. And they found a way to resolve those issues that then lead to a successful reef 10 years down the road. They then can share what happened to work for them to lead to such a successful tank so many years later.

Someone who has had a tank for 4 months and beaten back the issues of a 2 month tank, still only has 4 months under there belt and can't really speak for long term success with even the method they used to resolve the issue. Who knows in another month the 4 month tank might be right back to where the 2 month tank is, maybe that reefer then gave up at that point. It's hard to say the success of a particular methodology in solving an issue when there is no long term evidence it worked..

Edit, your analogy doesn't really relate here either. A better analogy to the situation at hand using your exmple would be who would you trust more to teach your 16yo how to drive, an 18yo or a driving instructor?

JMO ofcourse

I do completely agree that someone with 4 months experience can certainly still be more than helpful to someone at the 2 month stage than no one atall. And I'm not saying that because they only have 4 months experience they shouldn't be helping out. Just that they only help with things they have only experienced for themselves or by directing someone they may know has knowledge on a particular topic. There are better ways to help than just parroting something they read somewhere without having any personal experience with that they are talking about.

I think you have to understand the other side too especially for SPS.

There's a ton of new, casual, likely short term hobbyists trying to jump straight to fast growth and perfect colors.

And they often want advice about the best short cuts to take bc they don't want to hear that a lot of the experts think a yr at a time.

There's a huge amount of arrogance thrown at old timers and experts whenever their advice involves work and patience vs money and snake oil.