I Was Wrong

[fish farmer]

It speaks to the laziness, cowardice and myopia of the debate that you can't even whisper the plain and obvious upstream problem, human overpopulation, without being immediately shut down. The two political extremes will accuse you of being either a baby killer or a fascist endorsing genocide if you so much as whisper human population as a variable in environmental destruction.

The refusal to confront human population further originates with a fundamental psychological rejection of any perceived menace to the ego. That is, people hold their own personal selves as some kind of ultimate, supreme value and by extension reject any challenge to limitless human population growth. This is quite a crude, flawed, incorrect and simple-minded way to conceptualize the world and humanity, but it runs deep.

We've even extended this subconscious notion to some of our material things. Two or three decades ago, there was quite a lot of alarm about destruction of wildlife habitat and open space as consequences of urban sprawl. But now you can hardly mention this issue because of a perceived threat to human dwellings and by extension humans in general along with the individual ego. The same goes for agriculture. In the US alone, millions of acres of wildlife habitat and elbow room for people are degraded or destroyed every year by development and agricultural intensification. Yet this is completely ignored by media and policymakers. Even professionals who work in conservation are timid to discuss habitat destruction out loud. Human conversion of land to farms and cities is just taken as an inevitability or inviolable right, even while numerous options for better use of land area exist....

https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/wildlife-management/seeing-fewer-mule-deer-turkeys-and-ducks-thank-americas-habitat-crisis





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I work in he fisheries conservation field and Vermont recently had another epic flood event, not the first and not the last. We compare the recent mudline to historic lines on infrastructure that survives. Back in the 70's after one event, one biologist was saying we should add wood to streams, stop gravel mining in stream, etc. We stopped gravel mining in streams.

Fast forward to Irene. Soon after the event the previous Governor waived all stream alteration permits to get Vermont infrastructure moving again. Someone recently mentioned the "Dredge Baby Dredge" attitude from that event.

That isn't happening this time around. You still need to get a stream alteration permit and have officials assess what you plan to do. We are also putting out news articles about how valuable large woody debris is to streams and leave the streams alone to recover mentality.

Of course much of the destruction that has happened in Vermont is due to historic encroachment to floodplains whether it is the quaint little mill town you visit in October or the road you take to get there.

At lease since Irene building near or in floodplains is either greatly restricted or banned outright. Most of my property is in Zone AE, ( my house is Zone Z) and I'm restricted on what I can do with that section of the property.

Buyouts do happen on impacted structures, but many times they are less than they are worth. My town was seeking to have a dozen properties bought out since they are in a flood area, many were still livable. The town didn't want to continue to rebuild the road and ensuring resident safety during flooding could be impacted. Some people took the buyout, some didn't.

 

[Daenion]

Next topic should be solving world hunger.

I think you guys got to the bottom of this one topic.

 

[blaxsun]

Next topic should be solving world hunger.
I think you guys got to the bottom of this one topic.

 

[Doctorgori]

Overpopulation ?
Any mention of population control is a fire keg because many of the “family planning” stuff does indeed have roots in the eugenics/racial motives of the early 20th century .. couple that with religious sensitivities ..
it would be wise not to tread there ….

Wildlife conservation/will/attitude: This varies by country, culture, and available resources, et. The big cat and apex predator situation is a cultural political conundrum … Fishing resources and lack of international consensus is another mess

…However you slice it, the whole EV/Electronic landscape is a interwoven complex international pile o dookie…Africa will no doubt be at the center of this mess, not Europe, Asia or the Americas…

 

[Reefering1]

Next topic should be solving world hunger.

I think you guys got to the bottom of this one topic.

Same answer... less people

 

[Lasse]

I agree they should make the grid clean as possible. You ever see a picture of the mining operations that go into making those batteries? Do you know what it cost consumers to replace those batteries in about 10 years(10-30k each)

What about these

Google Search

www.google.com

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Reefering1]

What about these

Google Search

www.google.com

Sincerely Lasse

Exactly. Its practically the same thing. A difference would be that the oil is used worldwide for every thing people use, do, or produce. The those ev batteries only serve electric vehicles. I see no possible path to no oil, do you? We can do without electric vehicles. Not saying I don't support a alternative to oil, I just don't believe ev's are the solution.. I suggest propane, what's your opinion on that?

 

[blaxsun]

What about these

Don't buy into the hype. These are just some of the actual oil sands reclamation projects in Alberta the media never talks about... Yes, images of the mining operations sure seem scary - but that's only half the picture... And for what it's worth, Canada is the 4th largest oil producer in the world (with 5.7 million barrels per day or 6% of the world total). Care to guess where fuel prices would land if we "Just Stopped Oil"...?

 

[blaxsun]

I suggest propane, what's your opinion on that?

Natural gas (now), hydrogen (in time with infrastructure) and nuclear fission (renewables just won't cut it and we're at least 50 years away from a practical nuclear fusion reactor).

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I suggest propane, what's your opinion on that?

In the early 90s while active duty in the airforce we outfitted a small portion of our fleet with a propane conversion. These were mostly general purpose vehicles like Ford and Chevy csrs and trucks.

The consensus was centered around safety for the same reason hydrogen fueled vehicles weren't adopted into mainstream. Too dangerous! There wasn't sufficient proof that these tanks could withstand a direct impact and not explode.

It wasn't long before that program started to phase out.

I was young back then, now a little wiser I could see parallels with early gasoline filled tanks, remember the Ford pinto? I think the whole explosion concern was simply an engineering problem that could easily be solved. And it makes me wonder how much of the decision to phase out propane was based on unfounded opinion?

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

I think this sums it up perfectly.

Ma and Pa Kettle are...

 

[Kato]

I agree they should make the grid clean as possible. You ever see a picture of the mining operations that go into making those batteries? Do you know what it cost consumers to replace those batteries in about 10 years(10-30k each)

I think this will be my last post on this thread. I mean honestly, it's been shown again and again what the co2 footprint is of EVs in it's lifetime. Obviously depends on how the country produces it's electricity, but doesn't make EVs worse as there's a clear path to fix that (as many countries, especially in the EU have shown). On top of that many papers on how to recycle batteries and the availability of lithium on the planet vs global demand when the entire industry switches over in the next few years). When your battery is worn out (which technically is set at 80% of max capacity) it is not worthless.

Oh and btw, Caterpillar is also going electric

Caterpillar Successfully Demonstrates First Battery Electric Large Mining Truck and Invests in Sustainable Proving Ground

/PRNewswire/ -- Caterpillar Inc. (NYSE: CAT) announced today a successful demonstration of its first battery electric 793 large mining truck and a significant...

www.prnewswire.com

The problem for the countries that don't go electric is that gas is going to be exponentially more expensive. Perhaps not at the pump, but through even bigger incentives (an industry already given the biggest incentives)

What is really cool about electricity is that we can all create it. You, me or some country in the middle east. It's not energey that can only be pulled out of the ground at certain places and further help a few selected to build even bigger gold palaces.

 

[Kato]

.. another funny story. A few months back, in my area, a Tesla was in a accident. After firefighters arrived, it caught fire. They couldn't get it out so they pushed it in a retention pond

I don't understand why that is a fun story. Are you saying electric fires are harder to extinguish? (which is true) or that EVs burn more often (which is not true) or something else?

Imagine we were talking about phasing out EVs and using fossil cars instead and someone said 'hey the stuff you put in your car is actually highly flamable and once an entire gas station exploded'. That doens't per definition mean its a bad idea.

 

[blaxsun]

The problem for the countries that don't go electric is that gas is going to be exponentially more expensive. Perhaps not at the pump, but through even bigger incentives (an industry already given the biggest incentives)

Only if they have to import it...

 

[PhishMonger84]

In the early 90s while active duty in the airforce we outfitted a small portion of our fleet with a propane conversion. These were mostly general purpose vehicles like Ford and Chevy csrs and trucks.

The consensus was centered around safety for the same reason hydrogen fueled vehicles weren't adopted into mainstream. Too dangerous! There wasn't sufficient proof that these tanks could withstand a direct impact and not explode.

It wasn't long before that program started to phase out.

I was young back then, now a little wiser I could see parallels with early gasoline filled tanks, remember the Ford pinto? I think the whole explosion concern was simply an engineering problem that could easily be solved. And it makes me wonder how much of the decision to phase out propane was based on unfounded opinion?

it was likely buried by the oil lobby, like most progress items on this front seem to be.

 

[Lavey29]

The title of this thread sure fits some of you guys like a glove.

 

[Kato]

Only if they have to import it...

I think it may be a bit more complicated. Imagine 80% of all car companies start making EVs only (it's likely going to be a lot more and very soon). The remaining are going to be those that only sell domestic (let's say Russia, some china brands and perhaps a few smaller brands in the US. In other words, those that can be profitable by only selling domestic). The oil various countries produces will now no longer export at all. The cost per gallon produced I will predict will go up quite a lot. The countries that produce oil control the price (OPEC). They will not allow their profits to go down with demand. Remember you still pay even if the pump price is the same but the government decides to give even bigger incentives. Or if the export market gets smaller.

This is actually much like the debate about apple vs USB-C as required by the EU. Perhaps not a great comparison, but a lot of people felt the EU should not dictate this (but obviously is their right as it's their market) and Apple should just pull out of the EU entirely. But of course they wont as it will hurt their profits and allow Android to take over. The same will happen with electric vs fossil cars.

 

[PhishMonger84]

The title of this thread sure fits some of you guys like a glove.

Yeah, all you have to do is look at whose post don't have "likes" to find that subset.

 

[Lavey29]

Yeah, all you have to do is look at whose post don't have "likes" to find that subset.

Nah, sheeple are a tight close herd no matter how wrong they are. What's funny is even after proven wrong they will do a complete 180 and then swear they were never wrong. Hypocrisy is a badge of honor in sheeple nation.

 

[Reefering1]

I think this will be my last post on this thread. I mean honestly, it's been shown again and again what the co2 footprint is of EVs in it's lifetime. Obviously depends on how the country produces it's electricity, but doesn't make EVs worse as there's a clear path to fix that (as many countries, especially in the EU have shown). On top of that many papers on how to recycle batteries and the availability of lithium on the planet vs global demand when the entire industry switches over in the next few years). When your battery is worn out (which technically is set at 80% of max capacity) it is not worthless.

Oh and btw, Caterpillar is also going electric

Caterpillar Successfully Demonstrates First Battery Electric Large Mining Truck and Invests in Sustainable Proving Ground

/PRNewswire/ -- Caterpillar Inc. (NYSE: CAT) announced today a successful demonstration of its first battery electric 793 large mining truck and a significant...

www.prnewswire.com

The problem for the countries that don't go electric is that gas is going to be exponentially more expensive. Perhaps not at the pump, but through even bigger incentives (an industry already given the biggest incentives)

What is really cool about electricity is that we can all create it. You, me or some country in the middle east. It's not energey that can only be pulled out of the ground at certain places and further help a few selected to build even bigger gold palaces.

I guess, as an American, I like my freedoms. I don't want to be told what kind of car to drive. I like cars, I like driving them, the way they sound, smell and feel. I don't want to drive a computer on wheels. Full disclosure; I also don't like all the "driver assistance" crap their doing either. I paid more for my car to not have them. That said I'm all for clean electricity. But what's next, I can't have a bbq grill? Camp fire? Illegal to breathe too much? These ev's are pushed as the only solution and their far from it. And recycle all you want but when these cars show up at my shop with a 14 thousand dollar bill to replace the battery, I don't want any part to do with that. Imagine instead of 300$ every 3 or 4 years, its 15k every 10-12. You're ok being forced into that when there are other CLEAN fuels?