I Was Wrong
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Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
I live in the Northwest. You can hardly leave a metro area and charge an EV car unless you have your own home charger. You cannot drive to Seattle and back in a day with EV. Something that I have to do often. Couple that with a need to transport up to 3000lbs of stone slabs to my shop with a 200 mile round trip and again no EV will do that. Now look at the acquisition cost of EV in most categories it exceeds $100,000.00 landed cost. My current vehicles all cost less than $30,000.00 when new. The average yearly wage in my county is $43,407.00. Home price average is now in my county $399,000. Tell me how can anyone except the very rich locally afford to buy a house and a car at those prices that must be able to cross 300 to 500 miles in a day for some business or farm shopping needs? The local rail infrastructure is being torn our by the hundreds of miles per year due to trucks being more effective in transportation due to our far flung cities and towns.
You guys in Europe have no idea of the size and scale of Canada or the United States until you drive cross country and see the thousands of miles of low population area in North America. Get a clue we are very different in our needs and our land holdings alone dwarf the scale you are used to. We actually still have old growth forest while yours were replanted years ago. There is no comparison. And our needs are very different. The dirty secret of the many of the charging stations in California is they are driven by diesel generators that charge the super charging stations set up for Tesla and others due to the lack of infrastructure for electricity. The miles of electrical cables needed to deliver power over those vast distances again makes this a pipe dream to meet California's needs alone. Their power distribution system is outdated and poorly maintained. Entire communities have burned to the ground due to PG&E's poor maintenance. They were the first corporation charged with involuntary manslaughter and 11 other felonies in 2020 alone. I have friends who lost thier home in the Paradise fire in California.
The wind farms are already degraded and the blades are not even making it to ten years useful life and we are having to bury them in large waste dumps in our more barren land areas. No plan or ability to recycle them just like the batteries in EV. Lots of promise but very little delivery in lifespan or delivery on the promise. This is a political burden the average person cannot afford in our area yet you urban dwellers look down on those of us who have more connection to the land and its needs than you will even understand.
I see all this discussion as overreach by governments and individuals who have no clue how a large majority of people have to live there daily lives in rural and low density areas. To us it is about our freedom and protecting our way of life. When the technology matures to the point of practical and cost effective we will adopt it but not until. Some of our wheat ranches are bigger than some of your European cities in terms of land mass. We feed the world in the Northwest and EV's are not up to the task yet.
You guys in Europe have no idea of the size and scale of Canada or the United States until you drive cross country and see the thousands of miles of low population area in North America. Get a clue we are very different in our needs and our land holdings alone dwarf the scale you are used to. We actually still have old growth forest while yours were replanted years ago. There is no comparison. And our needs are very different. The dirty secret of the many of the charging stations in California is they are driven by diesel generators that charge the super charging stations set up for Tesla and others due to the lack of infrastructure for electricity. The miles of electrical cables needed to deliver power over those vast distances again makes this a pipe dream to meet California's needs alone. Their power distribution system is outdated and poorly maintained. Entire communities have burned to the ground due to PG&E's poor maintenance. They were the first corporation charged with involuntary manslaughter and 11 other felonies in 2020 alone. I have friends who lost thier home in the Paradise fire in California.
The wind farms are already degraded and the blades are not even making it to ten years useful life and we are having to bury them in large waste dumps in our more barren land areas. No plan or ability to recycle them just like the batteries in EV. Lots of promise but very little delivery in lifespan or delivery on the promise. This is a political burden the average person cannot afford in our area yet you urban dwellers look down on those of us who have more connection to the land and its needs than you will even understand.
I see all this discussion as overreach by governments and individuals who have no clue how a large majority of people have to live there daily lives in rural and low density areas. To us it is about our freedom and protecting our way of life. When the technology matures to the point of practical and cost effective we will adopt it but not until. Some of our wheat ranches are bigger than some of your European cities in terms of land mass. We feed the world in the Northwest and EV's are not up to the task yet.
Reefering1
2500 Club Member
Idk how I missed this...
This is how a smart, well articulated, person explains how I feel about the subject!! Well said sir.
Reefering1
2500 Club Member
This last time, gas stations had diesel generators, and trucks delivering fuel, about a week before electricity was restored(around here).
Another point is that even my neighbors that have solar panels didn't have power. They are designed to shut down with the grid, rather than separate from the grid.
Your right - We have no clue at all
The charts below - not in scale at all - the chart above - in scale
Further on - no one have say anything about the ones that need special solutions outside population centra. But still the urbanization rate in Canada 2021 - 81.65% - Sweden 2022 - 88.49 - US around 82.66 % (2020) We do not differ especially much.
About converting diesel into electricity by a power plant. It will be more efficient to do that - both in energy and CO2 emission perspective. Some math. An average efficiency of a diesel generator is 40%. 40 % percent of the energy will be converted inte electricity. 1 L diesel is equal to 9.9633 kWh. 40 % of that is around 4 kWh. (1 L gasoline is around 9.044 kWh) An average EV in Sweden consume 2 kWh/10 km -> 0.2 kWh/km. It will run 20 km on 1 L diesel converted into electricity by a generator. Average diesel car in Sweden consume 0.68 L/10 km -> it will run around 15 km if you put i directly in your car. Average gasoline consumption - 0.83 L/10 km - It will run 12 km on same amount gasoline as the amount diesel that produce 4 kWh in a diesel generator. I use a small Kia Picanto - it consume around 0.54 L/10 km -> it will run 18,5 km on 1 L gasoline. I can drive below 0.5 L/10 km and stay rather equal to the worst scenario - electricity produced by oil but the electricity mix we have here in Sweden (98 % fossil free) make the electric cars stand out much more.
There is better and worse examples - I try to stay to average in Sweden
Sincerely Lasse
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Another example - I Sweden more than 50% of the heat used for properties is produced by distance heating. Many of the heating plants are combined heat and power plants - producing both electricity and heat. In this way, almost 100% of the fuel's energy is used for human use. The fuel is mostly biofuels and garbage, but theoretically it would be possible to use oil and produce electricity for electric cars and still be environmentally positive compared to the situation today in many countries
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
rhizotron
Active Member
Personally I'm ambivalent about EVs solving any global environmental problems—they do seem to hold promise for reducing particulate air pollution and noise pollution in population centers, among other ideas—but you are misrepresenting aspects of this. Most Americans don't live in sparsely-populated rural areas; they live in and around small and large cities.
There are unreasonable positions and claims everywhere you look, but nobody who really knows about EVs is demanding that people in remote areas adopt them immediately. Neither are they demanding electrification for trucks or heavy equipment because everybody knows the technology just isn't available or scalable yet.
I grew up on a farm and I live in a small city now. Believe me I've heard plenty of uninformed opinions about the land and the environment from both urban and rural people alike.
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blecki
Well-Known Member
They already make EVs with more range than a full tank of gas in my ICE car...
They have electric semi trucks.
You guys who are so opposed to them because they can't meet your needs now but...
1) They can
2) In 10 years you won't even question it.
That's the point of things like the 2035 mandate. It forces the manufacturers to invest in the technology. More research and development means better cars. Better cars means more sales. More sales means more demand for infrastructure. All of this also lowers prices.
You lot sound like a bunch of old dudes in 1910 bemoaning the gasoline vehicle. "There's no where outside the city to buy gas!" "You're going to put all the dung shovelers out of a job!" "What about out on the farm? Those stupid cars always just get stuck in the mud."
They have electric semi trucks.
You guys who are so opposed to them because they can't meet your needs now but...
1) They can
2) In 10 years you won't even question it.
That's the point of things like the 2035 mandate. It forces the manufacturers to invest in the technology. More research and development means better cars. Better cars means more sales. More sales means more demand for infrastructure. All of this also lowers prices.
You lot sound like a bunch of old dudes in 1910 bemoaning the gasoline vehicle. "There's no where outside the city to buy gas!" "You're going to put all the dung shovelers out of a job!" "What about out on the farm? Those stupid cars always just get stuck in the mud."
Kato
Active Member
I took another read of this entire thread and had a few ideas/conclusions. I'm sure not all agree but from what I can tell:
1) In the end, no human, parent or whatever would argue that improving the bio diversity or air quality of the planet is a bad idea. I mean we spend an enourmous amount of time on our tanks doing just this. It all boils down to 'why should I suffer more than the other guy. Or why should I reduce my quality of life when the other guy just moves his cars to the second level of his garage to avoid flooding)
2) So it boils down to a few things.:
a) Who is going to pay for it
b) What does it mean for 'my' quality of life
c) Some corner cases where someone will miss the V8 sound, running longer between refuels of their jetski's, feel that 100" OLED screens are a must have. This category I will ingore as it's stupid in the grand scheme of things. And given what is happening is no joke, it seems totally fair that if you insist those are required for you and your family, you pay to compensate for it. What I do acknolwdge is that what means a lot to others (lets say 100" OLED screens), may not mean a lot to me but that goes the other way around too (energy hungry reef tanks).
In my opinion it's obvious that the poorest people (and this differs per country what that means) are not the ones who should pay for this. In the end we want to _reduce_ the difference between rich and poor. I'm not saying we should force it to be equal (I am a capitalist after all), but I think most can agree, that in some very wealthy countries, it has gotten out of hand in an unfair way. Obviously the taxation system has to be setup so it is the people who can afford it, are those that do the majority of the heavy lifting. Thats a given. And I can tell you if you're poor, you don't give a dang about going to Mars or colonize the moon. You have enough problems already.
For the people living in rural areas. Would it be acceptable if the system was setup that you got the biggest incentives meaning going carbon neutral would not cost you more (it may provide a few other cons and pros but that will be different for each individual).
If so, just elect the policitians that support this. Thats what we did in many EU countries.
1) In the end, no human, parent or whatever would argue that improving the bio diversity or air quality of the planet is a bad idea. I mean we spend an enourmous amount of time on our tanks doing just this. It all boils down to 'why should I suffer more than the other guy. Or why should I reduce my quality of life when the other guy just moves his cars to the second level of his garage to avoid flooding)
2) So it boils down to a few things.:
a) Who is going to pay for it
b) What does it mean for 'my' quality of life
c) Some corner cases where someone will miss the V8 sound, running longer between refuels of their jetski's, feel that 100" OLED screens are a must have. This category I will ingore as it's stupid in the grand scheme of things. And given what is happening is no joke, it seems totally fair that if you insist those are required for you and your family, you pay to compensate for it. What I do acknolwdge is that what means a lot to others (lets say 100" OLED screens), may not mean a lot to me but that goes the other way around too (energy hungry reef tanks).
In my opinion it's obvious that the poorest people (and this differs per country what that means) are not the ones who should pay for this. In the end we want to _reduce_ the difference between rich and poor. I'm not saying we should force it to be equal (I am a capitalist after all), but I think most can agree, that in some very wealthy countries, it has gotten out of hand in an unfair way. Obviously the taxation system has to be setup so it is the people who can afford it, are those that do the majority of the heavy lifting. Thats a given. And I can tell you if you're poor, you don't give a dang about going to Mars or colonize the moon. You have enough problems already.
For the people living in rural areas. Would it be acceptable if the system was setup that you got the biggest incentives meaning going carbon neutral would not cost you more (it may provide a few other cons and pros but that will be different for each individual).
If so, just elect the policitians that support this. Thats what we did in many EU countries.
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ErikVR
Well-Known Member
Glorious unlimited free driving kilometers!!! And a full car every day of the week! And to all the haters... We drive out EVs 1350 kilometers to the south of France and back multiple times a year.
Kato
Active Member
I know we all care about the environment. But we also care about jobs and the economy as doing the right thing requires money and investments. Re my earlier comment about being concerned about the Chinese invasion of government funded EVs across the world:
www.scmp.com
If the EVs are better then shame on the other manufacturers. I don't know. If they are just cheaper, then perhaps dig into why.
China’s July vehicle exports soar 63 per cent, widening lead over Japan
The latest data widened China’s lead over Japan. China exported 2.34 million vehicles in the first half, more than Japan’s 2.02 million units, according to the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.
www.scmp.com
If the EVs are better then shame on the other manufacturers. I don't know. If they are just cheaper, then perhaps dig into why.
ErikVR
Well-Known Member
Depends on what you're looking for. I think model 3s and ys are pretty much always available. Polestar took a bit longer. I got it 7 months after I ordered it.
rja
Well-Known Member
Man who forgot to put an inkbird on the ocean?
But seriously, it is a sad day when our tanks have become a better environment for the corals than the actual ocean. We need to take more responsibility. These organisms are literally living barriers. It is so interesting to consider that monti and acros are literally designed to be impact zones for waves. They evolved to protect us. This is why you can take a monti or acro, smash it to bits, and each bit will generate a new colony. Without their barrier-creating abilities, our shorelines will erode and the ecosystem will fall apart from within.
blaxsun
10K Club member
You can usually find a Tesla here (at least used ones), but the problem is that they're junk. They have very little resale value due to issues with batteries and the ridiculous associated repair costs with owing own once the warranty is gone. Teslas are one of the few vehicles most dealers won't take in on trade.
rja
Well-Known Member
For me, it is just the questionably sourced lithium and other elements in those batteries. I feel like transportation in general is going to be dirty no matter what. ICEs or EVs, that energy comes from somewhere. The greenhouse gasses are just generated away from your driveway. IMO, the only real way to generate clean power is nuclear, but we will never have that as long as there is money to be made with oil.Glorious unlimited free driving kilometers!!! And a full car every day of the week! And to all the haters... We drive out EVs 1350 kilometers to the south of France and back multiple times a year.
rja
Well-Known Member
I agree, as someone who spent 4 years working on them, they are a nightmare. When there is a problem, it's basically get a new one or spend the price of a new one in repairs. Those batteries are dangerous and tens of thousands of dollars. Not to mention the fact that I have seen multiple units where the body panels touch each other, they forgot to paint a whole area of the car, or the wheels have cracked due to the weight of the vehicle and the low profile tires. I do not see the appeal other than the insane acceleration, but that is basically a party trick.
fish farmer
2500 Club Member
As a grumpy old timer, my first job was a grocery bagger right before the switch to plastic bags. As a natural conservation minded person I questioned it. Paper was renewable, plastic was not,in my mind, but was touted as cheaper, easy to carry and probably "save a tree" was thrown around as well.
Vermont phased out single use plastic bags a couple years ago. It took 30 years to figure that out.
I agree with all the points with city conversion to EV...I lived outside of Boston in the 80s and the old school electric busses were still using overhead trolly wires.
Vermont is a very green...at least politically, state. Universal recycling, even down to household recycling food scraps. Solar everywhere. But we also have a strong NIMBY presence....not in my backyard. We block big retailers like Walmart, block wind power. Many folks will say we aren't a business friendly state with regard to our environmental laws. Our electricity isn't cheap, among other things being in a highly taxed state.
Sure...when my ICE van rusts to the point that it starts costing a lot to inspect, then I'll look into the offers of the EV products. My town actually put in a charging station recently, along with a car wash....we haven't had a car wash in my town for about 20 years.
There's a big push for heat pumps up here. I'm not sold on them yet, since I look at the set up costs vs what I pay now to heat/cool with electric.
