I Was Wrong

[Sebastiancrab]

We are our own worst enemy but I also don't buy in to all of these variations being man made. I think the planet goes through evolutionary phases along with the sun. Now if you want to talk about pollution of the ocean then we are totally to blame.

How do we know polar bears can't adapt?

I think you need to read about the temperature extremes all over the world. They are higher than ever recorded. It's only a matter of time before countries have major food production and water problems. And it's already happening in some parts of the world.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Huh? I think you might have missed my point.

Built on the premise there widely agreed upon that environmental policy. It was always about this bad. It has gotten a lot louder due to urgency, but the contention with doing anything in the sake of environmental concervation has always had propoganda pushed against it. And there have been opeds stating what you are stating about the climate, about clean water going pretty far back.

 

[rhizotron]

Built on the premise there widely agreed upon that environmental policy. It was always about this bad. It has gotten a lot louder due to urgency, but the contention with doing anything in the sake of environmental concervation has always had propoganda pushed against it. And there have been opeds stating what you are stating about the climate, about clean water going pretty far back.

Apologies but I still don't get what you're saying. Are you on your phone?

 

[KrisReef]

Fortunately, the coral species most affected are also found further south in the Caribbean. Because those corals are going to be in cooler water, it means that the species will still exist and eventually repopulate the damaged reefs up north. Unfortunately, if this starts happening every few years, there won't be time for recovery between events.

It makes it worse that it's in the Caribbean. When this sort of thing happens in the Pacific, hardier strains from the Red Sea and Palau can be used to replant the reefs. Because the Atlantic doesn't have the same species, that can't be done here.

I went to Florida once and saw a crew excavating the street for some improvement project, perhaps building a new road for a petrochemical fueled car and truck economy but what I noticed was that they were excavating extinct coral reefs that had died a couple of years back and were now being excavated in Orlando by a giant disgusting diesel powered pile of equipment.

I wonder how long it will take in geological time for new reefs to evolve in the oceans we have ruined?

The impact of life changes the face of the planet but the earth is not endangered by the mucking around caused by the life it supports. The planet takes care of itself and has always done so.

It has recently rejected a lot of the coral restoration efforts in Florida and they never saw it coming because they were too busy doing good that they thought was right. That last situation is sad imo, but folk’s just keep fixing the planet without examining the totality of the situation.

I have stopped littering myself but I’m not sure it will save the planet.

 

[Lavey29]

I think you need to read about the temperature extremes all over the world. They are higher than ever recorded. It's only a matter of time before countries have major food production and water problems. And it's already happening in some parts of the world.

And the temp variations that have occurred throughout history dating as far back as records exist and scientific studies determined? This caused what? Food problems 10000 years ago? Ice age? Floods? Etc.... just not one of the sheep here..sorry

 

[formallydehyde]

A lot of comments in this thread are good examples that just because something is delivered with the veneer of rationality, does not make said statements reasonable if they're defending an unreasonable position. It does not matter how much you shroud anthropogenic climate change denialism in backhanded politeness, "listening to both sides" and pseudo-skepticism - it does not change the fact that you've chosen to ignore decades of scientific research based on reasonable data and simple principles in favor of a narrative constructed by oil company executives because deep down that narrative is easier to emotionally process.

 

[Lavey29]

Do that - meantime - you can take part of this information as an example

In Sweden - life expectancy for men is around 81 and for female around 85 year

As I know it cold have been no problem but the heatwave over continental Europe this year (In Northern part during June) and in the rest - during July had create problems. Here is one example. And in the Mediterranean Sea - No El Niño. This heatwave is not a function of going green - its a function of climate

Sincerely Lasse

That's because they stay active working lifelong career jobs unable to retire. Get to live longer but at what cost? No thanks

 

[rhizotron]

I'll seriously trade you radiators... (there is no shortage of bugs here by a long shot!)

I'm sure it varies a lot and areas where there is still natural vegetation have less change. But in the past five decades here where I live I've seen a drastic decline in insect abundance and diversity. Also practically extirpated here are previously common animals that eat insects such as American Kestrel, Nighthawks and all kinds of Snakes. Frogs and Bats are still around, but much less abundant. I think the biggest drivers of this are habitat change or destruction and all the persistent pesticides on lawns and crop fields.

 

[Lasse]

China accounts for more greenhouse emissions than the next top 4, and China and India combined account for more greenhouse emissions than the other top 8.

Yes and India and China represent 36 % of the population - the other 8 US, Russia, Japan, Iran, Germany. South Korea, Saud Arabia and Indonesia have 13 % of the population. If you look to emission by capita - you will have a total different situation -

Compared with China

India

What we manage to save in the "West" every year is easily offset (and then some) by increases in the "East".

What the emission statistic not shows is that at least rather much of Chinas emissions comes from manufacturing things for the "west" - we import a lot of Carbon.

To be sure, but if it was being manufactured in North America or Europe the power consumption would be natural gas, nuclear or solar/wind/wave - not primarily coal.

Are you sure?

From here

Using gas or oil from the oil sand industry is not better than coal - see here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[bluemon]

Honestly a bit disappointed in this community (not Reef2Reef, but Reefers in general).

We are part of a hobby that is probably one of the closest to Climate Change and its impacts on the ocean (through ocean acidification, rising sea levels, temperature extremes, etc...); and definitely one of the hobbies that most puts science at its toolbox. We study the chemistry of the water, do what is best for the coral and fish, do what we best can to not just emulate the ocean, but to go above and beyond the natural seawater in order to promote the best growth in our corals.

Yet we still find a lot of people denying the human impact on the climate--and more importantly in our context--the ocean. These are the same people who worry about the smallest drops in pH in their tanks, find that it can be attributed to a rise in CO2 because of an increase in human breathing indoors, the same people who seek out the best salt mixes to raise alkalinity and calcium, etc... and yet when it comes to climate change, they call it a hoax and thinks it's just a "natural" course of the earth.

Sure climate change is nothing new in the course of earth history. But one that is as rapid as the one we are facing now, with clear evidence pointing it to human industrialization and growth, is unprecedented. Sure earth always finds a way to adapt and its organisms a way to evolve, but most will not be able to evolve and adapt fast enough to survive.

If you chalk up a few mass extinctions as just "a nature course of things," then I agree with you, it's perfectly "natural" that this climate change is happening, and earth will "adapt" after millions of species will go extinct.

But at that point, the only corals we will see will be in our sorry little tanks. In the course of the history of the universe, you are right: climate change is natural, and so is the death of our planet in few millennia.

But to turn a blind eye and blame everything on politics is low, especially for this community. We have first hand experience with these lovely creatures that we are killing out in the real world. Even if we can't save the ocean ourselves (since there are bigger parties at play), the least you can do is acknowledge it is happening.

 

[blecki]

This caused what? Food problems 10000 years ago? Ice age? Floods? Etc.

Yes, actually. We didn't exist on a scale that could affect the world globally until the 1800s where man-made climate change first started to affect the planet by pulling us out of what should have been the start of the next ice age. But we have always been affected by the natural changes in climate causing famines, floods, etc. The problem now is not that Florida has a bleaching event. There have always been local temperature minimums and maximums. There have always been localized events like this.

The problem is that now they are not localized. It's never been this hot, everywhere, all at once.

it does not change the fact that you've chosen to ignore decades of scientific research based on reasonable data and simple principles in favor of a narrative constructed by oil company executives because deep down that narrative is easier to emotionally process.

This is it 100%. It's just easier to attribute what's happening to a 'natural process', because then you don't have to take responsibility for it. So here's a way out - climate change is the fault of man, but it's not the fault of you or I. Recycling? Not eating meat? These have no impact when you consider the actual source of CO2 emissions; 100 or so companies globally. You can fight climate change without changing anything you're doing at all because you aren't the problem.

Or you could, I suppose, just ignore it, because you think it's natural that temperatures have risen more in the past decade than at any point in the past.

 

[blaxsun]

Are you sure?

Yes, I listed natural gas and nuclear (and I realize coal is basically as much as nuclear). I was more referring to what would end up being used to expand the power grid. It's almost guaranteed that they're not going to be building more coal-fired power plants...

 

[blaxsun]

A lot of comments in this thread are good examples that just because something is delivered with the veneer of rationality, does not make said statements reasonable if they're defending an unreasonable position. It does not matter how much you shroud anthropogenic climate change denialism in backhanded politeness, "listening to both sides" and pseudo-skepticism - it does not change the fact that you've chosen to ignore decades of scientific research based on reasonable data and simple principles in favor of a narrative constructed by oil company executives because deep down that narrative is easier to emotionally process.

Let's be clear here: scientists were dead-set that we were entering another ice age in the late 1960s/1970s.

 

[Lasse]

That's because they stay active working lifelong career jobs unable to retire. Get to live longer but at what cost? No thanks

Most Swedes I know have retire between 62 and 67 years- Today you can retire at 63 years and if your employer do not want to hire you any more - you must quit at 68.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[blecki]

Let's be clear here: scientists were dead-set that we were entering another ice age in the late 1960s/1970s.

They were not. The majority of publications from the time predicted warming. As today, the media sensationalized the reports that got them the most viewers. You can read the entire wikipedia page which summarizes the bad science involved in the extrapolation of the post-wwII cooling trend here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

But, even if it was true that scientists were 'dead-set' on it; that's how science works: New information leads to new understanding. A scientist does not cling to a belief (for example, that aresols would cause cooling or that higher CO2 concentrations wouldn't cause warming) when presented with evidence to the contrary.

 

[Lavey29]

Yes, actually. We didn't exist on a scale that could affect the world globally until the 1800s where man-made climate change first started to affect the planet by pulling us out of what should have been the start of the next ice age. But we have always been affected by the natural changes in climate causing famines, floods, etc. The problem now is not that Florida has a bleaching event. There have always been local temperature minimums and maximums. There have always been localized events like this.

The problem is that now they are not localized. It's never been this hot, everywhere, all at once.



This is it 100%. It's just easier to attribute what's happening to a 'natural process', because then you don't have to take responsibility for it. So here's a way out - climate change is the fault of man, but it's not the fault of you or I. Recycling? Not eating meat? These have no impact when you consider the actual source of CO2 emissions; 100 or so companies globally. You can fight climate change without changing anything you're doing at all because you aren't the problem.

Or you could, I suppose, just ignore it, because you think it's natural that temperatures have risen more in the past decade than at any point in the past.

You explained my point better then I did. Temp, water, ice. Etc.... changes and variations have been going on for millions of years on the planet. Sometimes it's hotter, sometimes colder, etc....these are not man made fluctuations because as you state "we did not exist on a scale we do now". These fluctuations were cyclical and just part of the planet and sun evolutionary cycle.

Now fast forward till today where the elites of the world have gone all in on The Green Deal for the world. All of a sudden everything related to fossil fuels is destroying the climate yet changes in climate have occurred over thousands and thousands of years.

I'm not saying we don't contribute to pollution and that cleaner fuel alternatives are bad but to say certain things are the primary source of climate change is just wrong and plenty of scientists agree

The NWO is seeking world wide socialist government control and the green movement will assist them by destroyin economies around the globe as it's crammed down upon us rather then phased in over multiple decades with technology advances.

follow the money trail.

 

[blecki]

You claim I made your point for you but you completely ignored mine. Changes like we are experiencing right now have not, in fact, been going on for millions of years.

There's no 'NWO'. There is no global conspiracy to take control. I followed the money trail... to the oil lobbies, that have been fighting climate science for decades to preserve their business.

You're just... projection.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Apologies but I still don't get what you're saying. Are you on your phone?

You explained my point better then I did. Temp, water, ice. Etc.... changes and variations have been going on for millions of years on the planet. Sometimes it's hotter, sometimes colder, etc....these are not man made fluctuations because as you state "we did not exist on a scale we do now". These fluctuations were cyclical and just part of the planet and sun evolutionary cycle.

Now fast forward till today where the elites of the world have gone all in on The Green Deal for the world. All of a sudden everything related to fossil fuels is destroying the climate yet changes in climate have occurred over thousands and thousands of years.

I'm not saying we don't contribute to pollution and that cleaner fuel alternatives are bad but to say certain things are the primary source of climate change is just wrong and plenty of scientists agree

The NWO is seeking world wide socialist government control and the green movement will assist them by destroyin economies around the globe as it's crammed down upon us rather then phased in over multiple decades with technology advances.

follow the money trail.

What a joke

 

[rhizotron]

What a joke

I still can't understand what you're saying.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Couple weeks back I posted a thread bashing the 101 degree water temperature recorded in the Florida Keys. I blew it off as headlines and thought the corals would be fine in their heavy flow environment. I was wrong. I’ve been diving the last few days in the keys and it’s sad to say there’s a lot of white Coral. More white corals than colored ones. Everything is bleached. The most concerning part is that big corals are bleached. Corals that took years to grow are now dead.

That's sad, hope the reef recovers