Ich, Again??

[Paul B]

Don't worry Humblefish, I won't get involved in this one. But you know how I feel about this and many threads like it.

 

[Humblefish]

So when the lights came on today in the DT, I had another look at the Kole Tang and the white spots definitely don't looked raised, they look flush with the skin. Is it normal for ich to present like this or should they be raised spots?

Ich actually burrows in under the skin, under the epithelium (outer skin layer). So if you look really close, the white spots should appear to be just under the top skin layer. Another way to confirm ich is the white spots will only remain for 3-7 days before disappearing. They also remain stationary; flukes will slowly crawl over the fish's skin.

Don't worry Humblefish, I won't get involved in this one. But you know how I feel about this and many threads like it.

Feel free to give any advice you wish, my friend. There's no right or wrong, there are only choices. The end user must decide for themselves whose advice to take, and that is their choice to make.

 

[mcarroll]

Hoping for a sterile tank… I just don't know how that keeps coming up as a possibility - it's just not.

You may as well bank on hitting the lottery.

Fish that survive ich (gaining immunity) are carriers for a certain amount of time. Without knowing for sure how long, personally, I would assume forever. I'm not sure anybody really knows for sure how long. (Especially not without positive ID.)

You need healthy fish in a healthy tank.

Coppersafe and fallow treatments (for example), while they may have their place, are not the route to either of those things.

 

[TCFletch]

There's no such thing as a perfectly healthy fish in an aquarium. How healthy do you think you would be if I put you on a small boat with just food and water for the rest of your life? They are animals that belong in the ocean.

 

[Humblefish]

There's no such thing as a perfectly healthy fish in an aquarium. How healthy do you think you would be if I put you on a small boat with just food and water for the rest of your life? They are animals that belong in the ocean.

In the ocean, fish can handle parasites/worms because of dilution. In a tiny glass box their immune system is often overpowered by a much higher concentration of parasites, worms and harmful bacteria.

Also, fish get sick in the ocean and die well before their time. Often another fish kills/eats them. Cycle of life. But this is not something you want to have happen in your home aquarium, since you just paid $50-$100 for the fish.

 

[Paul B]

There's no such thing as a perfectly healthy fish in an aquarium. How healthy do you think you would be if I put you on a small boat with just food and water for the rest of your life? They are animals that belong in the ocean.

A fish in the best health it could be in should be our goal. Of course they will never be as healthy as fish in the sea but a fish, no matter where it is should die from nothing but old age and it should be spawning it's entire life (if it has a partner of course) If there are no other of that type of fish and it is a fish that is able to spawn in a tank, it should be making spawning jestures and cleaning a nest. This they do constantly.
If they are not doing these things, they are not very healthy and subject to all the diseases that it encounters.
Just my opinion of course.
Have fun.

 

[mcarroll]

I agree...great article to that point:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-behaviorally-complex-are-marine-fish.15/

However, even short of perfection, there is no reason that most fish should die as early as they do in captivity. (Leaving the supply chain aside...just talking about us.) It's extremely possible to keep fish alive so long that they die of old age rather than ich, velvet, flatworms, Brooklynella, this, that, and the other thing too.

I don't think we need to worry about perfection.

 

[TCFletch]

We'll all be glad when we can spawn all our favorite fishes and inverts and propagate our corals to perfection and health. Now that would be truly remarkable! We're already spawning some species and more are on its way. Only then will the beautiful blue seas be a happier place where a fish can be a fish and not be afraid for its life in the hand of us humans. I will be the first person in line to buy a healthy captive raised Regal Tang.

 

[Paul B]

I can't "spawn" corals but wish I could. But fish are easy as long as you have the correct conditions. For a regal tang that would probably also be quite easy "if" you had a large enough, natural place for them to do it as they have no problem raising themselves in the sea. I think this will all be done in ponds in the tropics as fish will never feel secure in a glass tank. I am sure the glass drives them crazy as they can't see it but their lateral line allows them to "feel" it. I think that is also the cause of HLLE, but that's just me. Just about all bottom fish can easily be spawned and if we had the time to get the rotifers, almost all of them could be raised. But not as cheap as wild caught which is why no one is doing it. Take a bangai cardinal. They constantly spawn in a tank and the fry are larger than guppies. Simple fish to raise, but still cheaper to catch. That is gradually changing.
Virtually all my paired fish are spawning and if I had the time, and inclination, I would raise them. Even my mandarins spawn every month or so but that is in a reef tank where the babies get eaten. If I had a spare 100 gallon tank I am sure I could easily raise many of them a month. You would also need grow out tanks, an unlimited supply of brine shrimp eggs and plenty of time and cheap labor.

 

[TCFletch]

I can't "spawn" corals but wish I could. But fish are easy as long as you have the correct conditions. For a regal tang that would probably also be quite easy "if" you had a large enough, natural place for them to do it as they have no problem raising themselves in the sea. I think this will all be done in ponds in the tropics as fish will never feel secure in a glass tank. I am sure the glass drives them crazy as they can't see it but their lateral line allows them to "feel" it. I think that is also the cause of HLLE, but that's just me. Just about all bottom fish can easily be spawned and if we had the time to get the rotifers, almost all of them could be raised. But not as cheap as wild caught which is why no one is doing it. Take a bangai cardinal. They constantly spawn in a tank and the fry are larger than guppies. Simple fish to raise, but still cheaper to catch. That is gradually changing.
Virtually all my paired fish are spawning and if I had the time, and inclination, I would raise them. Even my mandarins spawn every month or so but that is in a reef tank where the babies get eaten. If I had a spare 100 gallon tank I am sure I could easily raise many of them a month. You would also need grow out tanks, an unlimited supply of brine shrimp eggs and plenty of time and cheap labor.

Interesting. You might be on to something about the HLLE theory. I had a foxface that was sensitive whenever I plugged something into an outlet but the physical appearance never resembled that of the HLLE pictures that I've seen. Which in turn makes me believe that HLLE and stray voltage don't quite go hand in hand.

I have a 2000 gallon Koi pond in my backyard and they're always making babies. Frogs and Mexican Turbo Snails, too. If it weren't so cold where I live I would convert it over to a spawning tank for Tangs. Love those fish. That would certainly be a challenge!

Stay wet and keep on Redfin' [emoji41]

 

[kevindo123]

That looks like ich.

So when the lights came on today in the DT, I had another look at the Kole Tang and the white spots definitely don't looked raised, they look flush with the skin. Is it normal for ich to present like this or should they be raised spots?

Also, I'm now trying to decide best course of action. As mentioned I have two QTs; however, both are currently filled with new groups of fish. One tank is almost done with their 30 days of Copper and the other has the Blue Star Leopard Wrasses I was trying to avoid using Cu on. Given the DT is stocked with coral, what would you all suggest?

That's a tough call to make. If it was me, I cannot wait another 72 days. I'll take the risk. I know fish can develop immunity for ich and I have first hand experience with it and also witness full tank ich outbreak at a LFS one day and a few weeks later no more symptoms. A lot of people here on this forum have ich in their tank and it doesn't bother them.

You have two options (I'll go with #2).

1. Do it again (QT / 72 days fallow)

2. Manage it (refer to ich management thread on the forum)
- Do not add any more fish in the DT until you feel your inhabitants can develop an immunity for ich (show no symptoms and white spots). I'll wait about 2 weeks of symptom free and add the leopard wrasse. Leopard wrasse sleeps in the sand and are more resistance to ich. Follow by adding the the other fish from your other QT slowly(two weeks apart). New fish may show symptom in the first two weeks. If they do, wait for them to build up their immune.

- If they don't develop immunity you have to take it out for treatment, do not wait for fish to stop eating before you take action. Treatment will make it worst.

- Keep up with tank husbandry and water quality. Make sure you keep your fist stress free as much as possible.

- You still need to QT new arrival as you don't want to introduce new strains of ich or parasites into your DT.

 

[dragon99]

Also, I'm now trying to decide best course of action. As mentioned I have two QTs; however, both are currently filled with new groups of fish. One tank is almost done with their 30 days of Copper and the other has the Blue Star Leopard Wrasses I was trying to avoid using Cu on. Given the DT is stocked with coral, what would you all suggest?

Petco is still running the $1/gal sale, so you could always pop up another QT. Maybe look into chloroquine phosphate for ich treatment instead of CU.

 

[Paul B]

Interesting. You might be on to something about the HLLE theory. I had a foxface that was sensitive whenever I plugged something into an outlet but the physical appearance never resembled that of the HLLE pictures that I've seen. Which in turn makes me believe that HLLE and stray voltage don't quite go hand in hand
Stay wet and keep on Redfin' [emoji41]

HLLE comes from captivity as wild fish don't get it. I realize there are 729 theories as to what causes it, this is mine.
Fish can feel the glass quite well, but they can't see it and it drives them nuts. It's as if you had spider webs on you that you can feel, but can't see.

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/wish-were-fish-with-lateral-line-system-6482/

 

[Bruce Burnett]

I have found that even though the new fish do not seem to have ich but 2-3 days after putting into display some spots appear. if your tank is healthy and the fish were healthy you will see the number of spots change thought out the day then after a few days they will get less and less and be gone within a week. If not then you need to figure out what is stressing the fish and it's immunity.

 

[4FordFamily]

I have found that even though the new fish do not seem to have ich but 2-3 days after putting into display some spots appear. if your tank is healthy and the fish were healthy you will see the number of spots change thought out the day then after a few days they will get less and less and be gone within a week. If not then you need to figure out what is stressing the fish and it's immunity.

I did this for years but in today's world with velvet literally 20x more common than it was, stronger strains of ich, more prevalence of ich, and more corners cut through the supply chain (weaker fish upon arrival), this is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

I did this for years but in today's world with velvet literally 20x more common than it was, stronger strains of ich, more prevalence of ich, and more corners cut through the supply chain (weaker fish upon arrival), this is a recipe for disaster.

Did not mean don't QT he said even though he QT he still had ich show up. I must admit I don't QT and the only fish I have lost in last couple years were from carpet surfing or excess ozone error. Cover going on tank and no ozone.

 

[4FordFamily]

Did not mean don't QT he said even though he QT he still had ich show up. I must admit I don't QT and the only fish I have lost in last couple years were from carpet surfing or excess ozone error. Cover going on tank and no ozone.

Sounds like a poor job qt'ing, I've done it we all have. Ich is powder puff football to velvet

 

[Paul B]

I used to have crushed velvet seats in my vintage cars in the 60s. Never ich though.

 

[joro]

Appreciate everyone's insight and feedback, I think what we're going to do now is wait it out and see how it progresses given the other QTs are currently stocked out. The batch of fish that are in the DT right now are (or should be) very strong given the treatment protocol and hopefully they are able to fight it off naturally. The next batch of fish are still 2-3 weeks out and we'll have some time to adjust strategy if needed, fortunately they are currently understocked in terms of the QT so they can stay put a little longer if necessary. Still open to further thoughts and experience, this has been a great learning process even before the spots appeared

 

[kevindo123]

How are the fish doing I the DT?

Same situation as you.... I introduced my Harlequin Tusk back in DT after 6weeks under QT. Immediately it started to flash and ich spots appearing on the fins on the third day. The yellow scopas tang was bulling him and could have been better if I used an acclimation box. Maybe next time. Today is the forth day and he seems better /w no new ich spots and acting more normal and not flashing, actually looking for food. I hope he can show more improvement in the coming weeks. Last time I had to rescue him after he was overly exhausted from constant/nonstop flashing. He only lasted for two weeks before I decided to take him out.