ICH AGAIN!

[HotRocks]

Thank you! And what for display tank? Should I try lowering salinity? Or just leave it for 72 days?

Leave salinity as is in the DT. Just no fish whatsoever for 76 days.

Also read this about setting up your QT. Make sure you have enough O2 exchange (Airstone and a powerhead breaking the surface to create oxygen). It is the most important part of your QT when medicating.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/

 

[Humblefish]

^^ Good advice above.

Basically, when you have ich/velvet in the DT your best option is to go fallow and treat all of the fish in a QT. There are no shortcuts or reef safe remedies that will actually eliminate the problem.

 

[Reefer1978]

All the posts are spot on. Remove the fish and treat. Leave DT fallow for 76 days. And be very careful with all future fish. I treat everything, even if I have guarantees from stores/vendors. Not breaking this tank down again just to catch a wrasse ever again.

 

[Big G]

Prophylactic Treatment: No observed symptoms of disease or injury

20 gal QT cycled: HOB with foam pad & BioMax treated with Bio Spira/Dr Tims, foam bubble filter with foam soaked for at least 2 weeks in DT sump, heater, powerhead, Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge.
Tank lights off. Ambient room lighting only.
Feed fish with white/black worms, vitamin & fiber packed frozen food with Selcon/Zoecon for at least 3 days
Freshwater dip to check for flukes.
S-l-o-w-l-y (8-10 days) bring up copper to therapeutic levels for prophylactic treatment for 30 days: Tank lights off until therapeutic level is reached. Best to dose several times a day (AM, lunch, PM) rather than one large dose.
Carbon & Cuprisorb to remove copper. Water changes. Observe.
General Cure 2 doses 5-7 days apart. Turn up bubbler and turn on powerhead aimed at surface to increase O2. Like GC over Prazipro. GC has Metro + Praziquantel, so you are getting the Praziquantel which kills flukes and "some" internal parasites and Metro that kills all internal parasites/worms. And the dose of Praziquantel is lower but does the job and is easier on sensitive fish.
Carbon & water changes.
Observe 10-14 days.

 

[galka]

Thank you all so much!!!! Hopefully i'll save the fishes this time..

 

[Toofattofish]

Prophylactic Treatment: No observed symptoms of disease or injury

20 gal QT cycled: HOB with foam pad & BioMax treated with Bio Spira/Dr Tims, foam bubble filter with foam soaked for at least 2 weeks in DT sump, heater, powerhead, Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge.
Tank lights off. Ambient room lighting only.
Feed fish with white/black worms, vitamin & fiber packed frozen food with Selcon/Zoecon for at least 3 days
Freshwater dip to check for flukes.
S-l-o-w-l-y (8-10 days) bring up copper to therapeutic levels for prophylactic treatment for 30 days: Tank lights off until therapeutic level is reached. Best to dose several times a day (AM, lunch, PM) rather than one large dose.
Carbon & Cuprisorb to remove copper. Water changes. Observe.
General Cure 2 doses 5-7 days apart. Turn up bubbler and turn on powerhead aimed at surface to increase O2. Like GC over Prazipro. GC has Metro + Praziquantel, so you are getting the Praziquantel which kills flukes and "some" internal parasites and Metro that kills all internal parasites/worms. And the dose of Praziquantel is lower but does the job and is easier on sensitive fish.
Carbon & water changes.
Observe 10-14 days.

Agree with all this but metronidazole has no known activity against worms.

 

[HotRocks]

Agree with all this but metronidazole has no known activity against worms.

Actually it does treat for intestinal worms and it also has Effectiveness for Brook so you kind of get a wide spectrum using this medication.

 

[Toofattofish]

Actually it does treat for intestinal worms and it also has Effectiveness for Brook so you kind of get a wide spectrum using this medication.

Do you have a reference for this?

 

[HotRocks]

Do you have a reference for this?

Keep in mind the effectiveness for intestinal parasites/worms is going to be beneficial if food soaked rather than dosed in the water column.

For Brook it's going to be better dosed in water column etc.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/metronidazole.298762/

 

[Toofattofish]

Keep in mind the effectiveness for intestinal parasites/worms is going to be beneficial if food soaked rather than dosed in the water column.

For Brook it's going to be better dosed in water column etc.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/metronidazole.298762/

The only reference in that first page is http://aac.asm.org/content/43/7/1533.full (good read btw), and only refers to anaerobic bacteria and protists (with TB being the lone exception) as being susceptible.
In humans metronidazole is never used for any kind of worm infections because it is not considered effective.

 

[Dogtown]

ICH is alive and well in all tanks all the time and is dormant in a sense. It is like Cancer in Human and Animals, the Cell is in us and is doing the Indy 500 Race and the Track is the Body. Totally harmless until it finds a weakness and something activates it and well we know the result. I have not done any QT ever and I have to go back to my freshwater days to remember when I had ICH. One of the biggest reason for ICH is Stress and poor diet. One of the worst fish for ICH is probably the Blue Hippo ( DORY ) why, watch the movie and you know the fish and the stress level. Now look at the Naso tang, very cool fish when mine sees coming he pops himself on the edge of the tank and lights a smoke and asks me how my day was. So the less noise and activity around the tank the better, and try not to do too many things with the tank at once. The less you handle your fish the better, find out if the store has added anything to water when buying the fish, if not just float and dump. You start playing with more nets in and out every time the fish is touched by a net slime is lost so that may answer your question on how. ICH in display, fresh netting, slime is lost BINGO, the weak spot. Fish that don't get along and have conflicts another weak spot, so chose well.
Food I only feed Flake and Pellets and dried Seaweed and have Garlic in it. I feed Frozen maybe 2 to 3 times a year as a treat. Naso is close to 10" I call him the peace maker, the Moorish Idol approaching 5 years is 6-7" Brazilian Yellow Belly Blue Hippo about 5 " Scopas Tang 4" full grown and Star Eyed Blenie 5" all bought in the 2 - 3 " mark and have only fed with Flake and Pellet. Now I will only feed 3 brands Northfin pellets, NLS Flake and pellets and Omega One Flake and Pellets, Seaweed I believe is Ocean Nutrition with Garlic.
From what I understand nothing really kills ICH it more like stuns it and it will drop off. A couple of cleaner shrimp may also be of great use.

Sorry but this is hogwash. Ich is a parasite.

 

[4FordFamily]

Thank you all so much!!!! Hopefully i'll save the fishes this time..

We’ve all been there! I learned many mistakes documented here now the hard way! One I learned over and over was cross contamination from qt to DT nullified my fallow period. Keep hands out of both tanks in short succession of each other. Good luck!

 

[skim]

Sorry but this is hogwash. Ich is a parasite.

What part would be Hogwash. That it like Cancer and looks for a weak spot to attack. That Garlic will help kill it. That stress is not a major factor. That net a fish removes the protective slime. I just not sure what is hogwash.

 

[Dogtown]

What part would be Hogwash. That it like Cancer and looks for a weak spot to attack. That Garlic will help kill it. That stress is not a major factor. That net a fish removes the protective slime. I just not sure what is hogwash.

"ICH is alive and well in all tanks all the time and is dormant in a sense" is what I was referring to as hogwash (sorry to be so blunt). Ich is actually a parasitic organism that lives in or on a host fish, or on its gills. The ich parasite benefits by deriving nutrients at the expense of the host fish. The only way that the ich parasite can be "alive and well" in a tank is if it is introduced into the tank. It can be introduced by a parasitic fish that is added to the tank or even by adding a drop of water that contains the ich parasite. A tank that does not have the ich parasite will not magically get the parasite ever. This is true no matter how much stress the ever fish are exposed to. Remember, the ich parasite has to be "introduced" into the tank. That's a scientifically proven fact.

@Humblefish for a more detailed clarification.

 

[Xanthurum]

As others have stated it is very possible to have an ich free tank. Here is a little insight to I know my tank is ich free.

Tank was started with dry sand, dry rock, and water I mixed myself with Fritz salt and RODI from my Spectrapure unit. No ich yet, cycled the tank the old fashioned way by putting some fish food in it and I began to gather fish and put them in my QT tank. I treat with copper verified by proper testing to ensure I maintain the proper levels for 30 days minimum. All fish every time no matter if I see any signs or not. Tank finished cycle and water change was done by way of mixing my own water same as always, ich free still. I also have a coral QT that does not have 1 single fish in it and again I make my own water. Corals spend minimum of 30 days in this tank but usually way more before they can go in the tank.

Fish in the DT have been clean and clear since day 1, now the argument of ich always being present and waiting for an opportunity to strike.

I recently added 3 more tangs and a few other fish all at once after QT. The addition of the Achilles did not sit well with my Powder Blue Hybrid and I had to divide the tank to prevent one or both from killing each other. If that wasn’t stress enough on 2 well known ich magnets I came home one day to find the Hybrid somehow got on the other side if the divider. The Achilles was torn to shreds (I’m talking bloody wounds not just torn fins) and the Hybrid was roughed up also. I removed the Hybrid and put him in the refugium. This was 2 weeks ago and not a single spot of ich on any fish is present and the Achilles has made a full recovery. I’m pretty sure the cage match that took place was stressful on all my fish especially the 2 involved, if ich was present I’d bet everything I own it would have shown up after all that.

 

[Humblefish]

Agree with all this but metronidazole has no known activity against worms.

Until I have a chance to update the sticky, best option is to treat with API General Cure if internal parasites and/or intestinal worms are suspected. General Cure contains praziquantel (dewormer) + metronidazole (dinoflagellates in the intestines + antibacterial activity). Food delivery is preferable, but dosing the water sometimes works too. Using a binder (e.g. Seachem Focus) can make food soaking GC “reef safe”; whereas I only recommend dosing it in a QT environment.