Ich and velvet appearance while being treated with CP or copper

[foxt]

Exactly what changes should I expect to see in a fish after I place an infested specimen in a QT tank and begin treatment? And are they different when treating with CP or copper?

For instance, if start with a fish obviously infested with ich and place it in a QT with 80mg/gal CP, what visible changes will take place over the first few days? CP only affects the theront stage, right?
Would that suggest that, depending on the timing, any visible changes in appearance would be due to the trophonts falling off as part of the lifecycle?

I had an obviously infested fish (either velvet or ich, not sure which, suspect ich), and gave it a FW bath, followed by a acriflavin bath. I then placed it in a QT dosed with 80mg/gal of CP.

Within 12 hours, the appearance of the fish had greatly improved. I attributed that to a combination of the baths I had given it, and not the CP. It may also have been the case that the trophonts were falling off because it may have been as much as 5-7 days after initial infestation.

But just two days later, the fish appeared to be heavily infested again. That is too quick for a reinfestation to have occurred (the fish had only entered QT four days before). So was that first improvement in appearance all about the dips/bath, and I am just seeing the continuation of the trophont stage now?

 

[Jamie7907]

Two days is plenty of time for a reinfection to occur, especially for velvet, ich maybe 3 days. I’ve had mixed success with CP depending on where I’ve gotten it from Now I only get it from my vet however in the past I got it from online fish medication suppliers and sometimes it worked sometimes it didn’t. Most of it came from China I believe and CP needs to be 99.5% pure I think in order to be effective if I remember correctly.

http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164

hth

 

[foxt]

Thanks for the response.

When I say "reinfection", here is what I mean: completion of the lifecycle to the point where trophonts morphed to protomonts then to tomonts, which became theronts that then found the fish again. That can all happen in 3 days with ich or velvet?

The QT was freshly set up, so I am certain that it was free of parasites; that means that if the white dots disappeared then returned three days later, either the fish was reinfested, or the trophonts had not completely dropped off and what I am seeing is evidence of more activity on their part ...

 

[GHsaltie]

If you are experiencing a reinfestation while in CP then it’s not working. As I mentioned in your other thread you will need pure CP in order to successfully treat your fish.

 

[foxt]

Thanks for the response.

In this thread, I am just trying to understand what the progression of treatment usually look likes in terms of visible signs of infestation. If I understand the lifecycle and treatment response of either ich or velvet correctly, treatment with either CP or copper should have no immediate effect (first few days) on the appearance of the fish, especially if the treatment tank was sterile to begin with. Right?

When I put a fish in to a new QT and start raising copper slowly, the number of days required to do that also allow the lifecycle of the fish to progress where trophonts will have left the fish. That would improve the appearance of the fish, right? It would not be a response of the copper, because that only affects the theronts; improvement in appearance is a result of trophonts that left and which were not replaced. Or am I missing something?

If I have that correct, then what happens with CP? Same thing? No immediate impact on trophonts, so any improvement in appearance is due to the progression of the trophonts, and lack of replacements due to theronts being killed by CP?

 

[Jamie7907]

Thanks for the response.

In this thread, I am just trying to understand what the progression of treatment usually look likes in terms of visible signs of infestation. If I understand the lifecycle and treatment response of either ich or velvet correctly, treatment with either CP or copper should have no immediate effect (first few days) on the appearance of the fish, especially if the treatment tank was sterile to begin with. Right?

Yes.

When I put a fish in to a new QT and start raising copper slowly, the number of days required to do that also allow the lifecycle of the fish to progress where trophonts will have left the fish. That would improve the appearance of the fish, right? It would not be a response of the copper, because that only affects the theronts; improvement in appearance is a result of trophonts that left and which were not replaced. Or am I missing something?

Also yes.

If I have that correct, then what happens with CP? Same thing? No immediate impact on trophonts, so any improvement in appearance is due to the progression of the trophonts, and lack of replacements due to theronts being killed by CP?

Again yes. The dips you gave the fish MAY have helped the appearance of the fish depending on how far the ich was burrowed into the fishes skin, more likely is that it was just the natural time in the lifecycle for the ich to come off and encyst which makes more sense with how fast you saw reinfestation.

Read through the links I posted there’s a lot of good information that can help you.

 

[foxt]

Again yes. The dips you gave the fish MAY have helped the appearance of the fish depending on how far the ich was burrowed into the fishes skin, more likely is that it was just the natural time in the lifecycle for the ich to come off and encyst which makes more sense with how fast you saw reinfestation.

Read through the links I posted there’s a lot of good information that can help you.

Thanks for the follow-up.

I did read through those links (one of which I have seen before), and have also been reading through the info I can find on r2r on this. I should also say that I have been through a few ich infestation/treatment cycles before, and have those for reference. But I haven't had an ich infestation, under treatment, behave the way this one did before, hence my questions. I am still not sure that it is ich. Based on everything so far, in the specific case I have now, the most likely situation is that this is velvet, and that the ebay CP is no good.

Back to the general question though. Let me try to ask it another way. Are these statements true about ich:

TTM - after the first transfer, there can still be trophonts attached, so the fish may not look better, but the visible signs of infestation should at least have reached their worst condition because new theronts are not able to attach. With each transfer, the visible signs should improve, and by after the third or fourth transfer the signs of infestation should be gone

Copper - when placed in sterile treatment tank and during ramp up, the visible signs might get worse (depending upon the ramp up period). If you ramp up copper in three days, no theronts should have been able to attach and the infestation should not start to look worse. If you ramp up over more than three days, more theronts might have a chance to attach, and symptoms could look worse before they look better.

CP - similar to TTM; when placed in treatment tank at full strength CP, the visible signs should not get worse at any time, because CP will immediately be shielding the fish from additional theronts.

 

[Jamie7907]

TTM - after the first transfer, there can still be trophonts attached, so the fish may not look better, but the visible signs of infestation should at least have reached their worst condition because new theronts are not able to attach. With each transfer, the visible signs should improve, and by after the third or fourth transfer the signs of infestation should be gone

Yes

 

[Jamie7907]

Copper - when placed in sterile treatment tank and during ramp up, the visible signs might get worse (depending upon the ramp up period). If you ramp up copper in three days, no theronts should have been able to attach and the infestation should not start to look worse. If you ramp up over more than three days, more theronts might have a chance to attach, and symptoms could look worse before they look better.

Probably, however do to many strains increasing resistance to copper from wholesalers and lfs’s running low doses to keep fish “looking” healthy while really selling a ticking time bomb it’s hard to say. In any case by the second round of cysts hatching copper should be at full strength preventing MOST reattachment hence the multi week treatment period, to catch any stragglers that may have gotten through.

CP - similar to TTM; when placed in treatment tank at full strength CP, the visible signs should not get worse at any time, because CP will immediately be shielding the fish from additional theronts.

Depends on the purity of the CP and the potential resistance of the parasite to it. While there are no studies that I’m aware of on resistance to CP the logical conclusion is that some are. CP has been around since the 70’s and resistance had developed in human uses long ago leading to it being shelved in favor of newer, stronger medicines. The proliferation of impure CP from China has more than likely helped lead to resistance in the aquarium industry. Just my hypothesis but I’ve had mixed results with CP.

 

[Forsaken77]

Why not just use Cupramine abd maintain it at its therapeutic level instead of buying ebay copper? Cupramine cleared my whole display of ich and is more easily removed with Cuprasorb and carbon.

Also, you can't go by a weeks worth. You have to treat for a minimum of a month, vacuuming the bottom during water changes to suck up cysts and fallen off parasites.

They could also possibly be flukes, which is why a freshwater dip may have helped at first. Anyhow, after the copper is done, 2 rounds of Prazi and antibiotics should be par for the course.

 

[foxt]

Why not just use Cupramine abd maintain it at its therapeutic level instead of buying ebay copper? Cupramine cleared my whole display of ich and is more easily removed with Cuprasorb and carbon.

Also, you can't go by a weeks worth. You have to treat for a minimum of a month, vacuuming the bottom during water changes to suck up cysts and fallen off parasites.

They could also possibly be flukes, which is why a freshwater dip may have helped at first. Anyhow, after the copper is done, 2 rounds of Prazi and antibiotics should be par for the course.

Thanks for the response.

I understand the treatment options and the schedule of both CP and copper. What I am asking in this thread specifically is for more info on how the visible signs of an infestation change over time, with TTM, CP, or copper.

From Jamie7907's responses, I'm concluding the following:

- the only treatment that is certain to provide visible signs of improvement in the early stages is TTM. After the first transfer, theronts are not present in the tank and there can be no new attachments; that means that the white spots will not be getting worse, and likely getting better

- both CP and copper may take some time to eliminate all theronts because there may be resistant strains of the parasite, or the lifecycle of the parasite may still be initially able to outrun copper levels as you ramp them up, or the CP may not be effective. The infestation may initially appear visibly worse before it gets better.