Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[Zionas]

You mentioned livestock choices. I’d appreciate it if you could go into a bit more detail on which ones you consider to be the “bad apples” when it comes to contributing to the likelihood of an ich or any other disease outbreak. Thanks. Could be fish, corals, anything.

 

[Zionas]

That’s a very interesting approach. From your experience are any fish more likely to develop immunity to ich? Which fish in your experience are the most, and the least susceptible?

 

[mmorriso]

You mentioned livestock choices. I’d appreciate it if you could go into a bit more detail on which ones you consider to be the “bad apples” when it comes to contributing to the likelihood of an ich or any other disease outbreak. Thanks. Could be fish, corals, anything.

I didn't mean it in the sense of "avoiding" certain species because of their predilection for ich; I don't think there are any species that are outright immune to ich if they are sufficiently stressed and I think that species/genus's that are more notorious for their susceptibility to ich can live in a tank with ich if husbandry is adequate.

For example; Currently, I have a powder brown tang who does not show any outward signs of ich. Previously, I lost wrasses and clown fish in my first encounter with ich.

What I meant was more along the lines of being a little conservative with the quantity of fish, the rate at which fish are added and known incompatibilities between species when confined together within an aquarium. Inattention to these will all stress the fish, compromising their immune system.

A lot of this is commonly discussed (No multiples of certain tang genus's, fish aggression levels, water parameters, feeding habits etc.). Here are some things that I have observed which I do not see discussed very much:

- I think fish take longer to "settle in" than might be thought. People seem to think a fish is settled once it stops cowering behind your rock-work, say a week. I think it can take a few weeks or more for the "pecking order" to be established and I don't think it's a good idea to add fish too quickly.

- I observed my fish fighting mostly over sleeping space. My original rock work was quite sparse. When I destroyed my rock work to catch all my fish to go fallow, I made a point of creating a lot more caves / retreats for the fish, even though it compromised my original "aesthetic". They all seem much happier with the new arrangement.

- I think within the first year, most tanks are just not stable. I know this is something almost no-one would consider, but I often think I would have saved myself a lot of heartache (and money! and trouble!) if I would have withheld stocking the tank for at least 6 months; Maybe just some clowns and a wrasse to keep things ticking over. There's so much going on in the first year and you have your hands in the tank so much, there's almost no way to avoid stressing the fish out. Almost everyone I know who has lost a lot of fish to ich has had their tank "in flux". People that have very mature, stable, reefs are able to add fish seemingly at will and can look forward to using their yellow tangs seniors card to buy cheap movie tickets in a few years. I guess if you are very experienced or are transplanting a lot of material from a stable system, this may not be an issue.

 

[Zionas]

That clears things up a lot. It will be my very first tank and I will definitely include caves and hiding spots as part of my rockwork. I’m also making sure that the peaceful fish go in before any of the more aggressive fish and to leave a 1 month gap (as suggested by Paul Talbot of Majestic Aquariums in one of his videos) between the addition of each fish or group of fish.

How many fish do you think would be acceptable for a tank that’s just been set up? Should I start with only a couple of small fish or can some large fish go in at the very beginning? The fish in question are Heniochus Bannerfish and a Marine Betta.

Thanks.

 

[Marc2952]

Man im so mad after months of going fallow and being ich free i now have it again after adding a Cuc to a bad case of algae i had. Now im thinking if i should just manage or go fallow again since catching those fish again is going to be a hassle i really dont want to do. Somebody needs to come out with a reef safe remedy to this issue fast and you will be a millionaire lol having multiple tanks just to QT everything that goes into the tank will make my GF go nuts lol

 

[DothanReefer]

For me personally, it's a judgement call. For example, I recently rehomed a foxface... even though my 150 gal is larger than the 125 gal "minimum tank size". But the foxface had grown to over 7", and just looked uncomfortable in my tank. I have a friend with a 210 gal who shares my beliefs about QT (very important to me when it comes to rehoming), so I made the 2 hr drive to bring him the fish.

I also will not hesitate to choose between two fish that will not stop fighting and rehome one of them. It just takes patience to find the right person with the right tank and a really good fish trap. :xd:

Speaking of fish traps....i had an ich outbreak in my tank about a month ago. Killed 4 fish, 2 clowns, a royal gramma and my blue tang. My yellow tang and court jester goby survived it even though both got the whitespots. They eventually fell off and I started trying to catch them so I could run fallow. I wasn't able to. They were too fast and hid in the rockwork. So, I bought the Polyplab Medic stuff and used it for 15 days. Havent seen any whitespot since stopping that treatment about a week ago. But, I know they have to still be in there - as you said, there isn't an in-tank cure for it yet.

So, my question is, what trap(s) do you recommend to catch a yellow tang and a small goby?

Thanks so much for the info!! I have 2 new QT tanks now after reading a lot of your material on your website. One is for QT-ing corals and the other for QT-ing fish.

I hope to eradicate this Ich from my display but know it will take a fallow period to do so. Please guide me to the best way to get these last guys out safely!?

 

[mmorriso]

How many fish do you think would be acceptable for a tank that’s just been set up? Should I start with only a couple of small fish or can some large fish go in at the very beginning? The fish in question are Heniochus Bannerfish and a Marine Betta.

Well Marine Betta's are supposed to be quite hardy; I think they're also supposed to eat small fish. It seems like they might be quite a resilient fish to start with, but you may struggle to integrate new fish into the environment. I've never kept either of those fish, unfortunately so can't offer a really informed opinion.

More generally; just add one and see how it goes. Be prepared to make a choice between any given set of fish if things don't work out. A lot of problems I see are when people are determined to have a set of fish that for whatever reason is not working out but they persist in "forcing the issue". This could almost be called "hippo tang syndrome". It'd be also good to have an "exit plan". i.e. What you can do with a fish that isn't working out. In my location, I had to build a relationship with a store before they would re-home a fish for me as it's not something that is commonly done.

 

[Elliott ll]

I am new to the hobby and was given a 100 gallon tank. Previous owner (pops) had tank for 10 years (heater malfunctioned killing fish) so decided to say #$% it. Long story short I was given a ton of live rock, sand, etc., established my biofilter and added a bunch of fish from LFS + Liveaquria over 2 months. Now I have several fish with ICH because I didn't do enough research and was never informed about QTing. Seems it's a common lesson learned late.

My LFS said to get a UV sterlizer and use SW ICH-X... I got the UV sterlizer, but call BS on ICH-X. Instead I have more faith in kanaplex + metroplex + focus combination. The only reason I am going this route is because I'm not ready to establish a 50 gallon QT tank and go fallow yet. I've found this be an obsession and want to eventually transfer to a 250 gallon, but want to learn more first... My plan is practice ICH management until I do a tank transfer, then upgrade to eradication once ready.

My question is what is the best way to practice ich management if one is in the middle of a multi-fish outbreak and cannot currently do a QT?

Should I continue the kanaplex + metroplex + focus (uv sterlizer off), or just say screw it and go feeding well and UV sterilizer on?

I feel horrible for my fish, dont want to kill my coral/inverts, and plan to one day practice eradication. Just frustrated being so new and facing this issue...

 

[Subsea]

Good luck on eradication. I have been addicted to reefing for 50 yrs. Tank maturity and biodiversity along with reducing stress and feeding live food is my anthem.
Stress from quarantine and stress from overcrowding kill 5 fold more fish than are killed by all parasites combined. Add to those stresses, medications that kill microbes and disrupt the microbial loop to further stress the system. I have stable systems that are more than 25 yrs mature.

A few yrs back, I received a shipment of 12 tiny Hippo Tangs from Divers Den. All showed extreme stress with rapid breathing, some laying on their sides and four of the 12 showed ich. I made a command decision and turned all stressed tangs into 75G display tank 20 yrs mature. All rapid breathing ended within the hour, Gill scratching ended in three days and white spots disappeared in 10 days. No fish died and no fish in mature tank displayed Ich symptons.

This is that same tank 5 yrs later.

 

[mav1ms]

I have also practiced ich management and I am a fan of the KISS principal, so I just run a UV, feed well (I have had great experience with the LRS frozen food, got that recommendation from PaulB on one of the threads) and then provide a habitat for the fish where they have no stress. For the record I have a Blue Hippo Tang, Yellow (captive bred) Tang, Purple Tang, Blue Tang, and Yellow Eye Kole Tang along with several other fish. All of my tangs are very healthy, my Blue Tang originally had ich 3 years ago, not a single fish since I managed fish stress and health has shown any sign of ich. I have introduced new fish since then and never had an issue. I do make sure the fish I purchase have been QTd and are healthy (I don'tQT).

I would suggest trying just the UV, make sure that it is tuned for parasite flow rates and not just algae. I run the Neptune FMM's to make sure. I also oversized my UV. Lastly, I feed LRS Frozen food twice a day (yes it is expensive), Nori a couple times a week and then provide plenty of habitat for my fish.

I have had great success.

 

[Elliott ll]

I have also practiced ich management and I am a fan of the KISS principal, so I just run a UV, feed well (I have had great experience with the LRS frozen food, got that recommendation from PaulB on one of the threads) and then provide a habitat for the fish where they have no stress. For the record I have a Blue Hippo Tang, Yellow (captive bred) Tang, Purple Tang, Blue Tang, and Yellow Eye Kole Tang along with several other fish. All of my tangs are very healthy, my Blue Tang originally had ich 3 years ago, not a single fish since I managed fish stress and health has shown any sign of ich. I have introduced new fish since then and never had an issue. I do make sure the fish I purchase have been QTd and are healthy (I don'tQT).

I would suggest trying just the UV, make sure that it is tuned for parasite flow rates and not just algae. I run the Neptune FMM's to make sure. I also oversized my UV. Lastly, I feed LRS Frozen food twice a day (yes it is expensive), Nori a couple times a week and then provide plenty of habitat for my fish.

I have had great success.

From both responses I am gathering that you guys suggest turning my UV sterilizer back on and letting nature run its course by stopping the kanaplex + metroplex + focus feeding combo? Do fish stand a chance if they are already severely covered? (it does seem like the ich is in the "falling off" stage).

After doing a recount I now have Ich showing on my Blue tang, Purple tang, Foxface Lo, and Flame Angel. I have a Blue Throat Triggerfish pair, two wrasses, and two clowns that are currently unaffected. The Foxface is the newest addition to the tank out of the 4 affected fish, however they are all fat, eating very well, and other than scratching and white spots... seem fine. I am adding garlic to their food to help boost appetites.

I was able to capture an okay image of my Blue tang's Ich because his is by far the most progressed.

 

[mav1ms]

From both responses I am gathering that you guys suggest turning my UV sterilizer back on and letting nature run its course by stopping the kanaplex + metroplex + focus feeding combo? Do fish stand a chance if they are already severely covered? (it does seem like the ich is in the "falling off" stage).

After doing a recount I now have Ich showing on my Blue tang, Purple tang, Foxface Lo, and Flame Angel. I have a Blue Throat Triggerfish pair, two wrasses, and two clowns that are currently unaffected. The Foxface is the newest addition to the tank out of the 4 affected fish, however they are all fat, eating very well, and other than scratching and white spots... seem fine. I am adding garlic to their food to help boost appetites.

I was able to capture an okay image of my Blue tang's Ich because his is by far the most progressed.

Mine looked just as bad if not worse when I had it, so I think as long as you can keep the stress down they'll pull through. Feed them well, and I would turn the UV back on, again focus on the flow rates through it. It will take some time to get it under control. I actually had two 'bouts with ich. The first time, I pulled all of the fish, put them in quarantine, treated them. The stress basically killed them, I had a Foxface, a clown and Bicolor that pulled through, lost all my other tangs and angels... I thought never again. The second time I focused on management, and didn't lose a single fish.

 

[Subsea]

@Eusvolk93

I would feed well. If your tank water is crystal clear, I would not use the uv sterilizer. A sterilizer is indiscriminute, it kills everything if dwell time and intensity are sufficient. Not all microbes are bad, most are beneficial and many are necessary for biochemistry to take place. Because I focus on the microbial loop to move organic carbon up the food chain for scallops, sea apples as well as ornamental & cryptic sponges.

What is going to be your dominant live stock theme of your system? Depending on your live stock goals determines if you should uv sterilize. If I get a bacteria bloom or a green water algae bloom, I will use up sterilizer as a tool when required.

 

[Elliott ll]

Using frozen PE mysis shrimp and PE Pellets mainly. I throw in some Extreme Seaweed pellets sometimes. Typically have fresh strip of nori out daily. Only a few of the fish will touch it, they seem to prefer all of the live red feeder algae I managed to root in rockwork. Using high quality foods (to my knowledge). PH of 8.2-8.3 and 79-80 degree temps. 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, 1ppm nitrates are my current tank parameters.

Now that I've learned more about tangs definitely not getting anymore of them, unless I have one die... two is enough ich magnets... I am trying to get a very high stocked tank that supports an abundance of coral. Corals will end up being where most of my money goes and my focus, but who doesn't love a well stocked tank. I think until I figure out a better plan I won't buy more fish, although I'd love have a long nose butterflyfish one day. After learning more about wrasses and seeing their personalities I am definitely thinking this will be a fish I'll add more of. First just need to survive this round of Ich... and then determine if I should do the 76 days of fallow and setting up a full time QT before adding anything else. If every fish I put in gets Ich I am heart broken.

I will turn UV on only if cloudiness appears, and I may run it once everything is normalized and no medications being used in order to help combat free swimming ich.

 

[cancun]

Using frozen PE mysis shrimp and PE Pellets mainly. I throw in some Extreme Seaweed pellets sometimes. Typically have fresh strip of nori out daily. Only a few of the fish will touch it, they seem to prefer all of the live red feeder algae I managed to root in rockwork. Using high quality foods (to my knowledge). PH of 8.2-8.3 and 79-80 degree temps. 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, 1ppm nitrates are my current tank parameters.

Now that I've learned more about tangs definitely not getting anymore of them, unless I have one die... two is enough ich magnets... I am trying to get a very high stocked tank that supports an abundance of coral. Corals will end up being where most of my money goes and my focus, but who doesn't love a well stocked tank. I think until I figure out a better plan I won't buy more fish, although I'd love have a long nose butterflyfish one day. After learning more about wrasses and seeing their personalities I am definitely thinking this will be a fish I'll add more of. First just need to survive this round of Ich... and then determine if I should do the 76 days of fallow and setting up a full time QT before adding anything else. If every fish I put in gets Ich I am heart broken.

I will turn UV on only if cloudiness appears, and I may run it once everything is normalized and no medications being used in order to help combat free swimming ich.

All sound advice on ich management for sure! I too practice ich management. I feed well, run a UV sterilizer, and keep my water quality good. I have 12 Wrasses in my tank and love them....they are my favorite type of fish. On the few ich out breaks I had the wrasses weren't affected at all, just 2 of the 3 tangs, and my Passer Angel to a lesser degree than the tangs. The third tang my Sohol was the Tang that was not affected.

 

[Elliott ll]

All sound advice on ich management for sure! I too practice ich management. I feed well, run a UV sterilizer, and keep my water quality good. I have 12 Wrasses in my tank and love them....they are my favorite type of fish. On the few ich out breaks I had the wrasses weren't affected at all, just 2 of the 3 tangs, and my Passer Angel to a lesser degree than the tangs. The third tang my Sohol was the Tang that was not affected.

My wrasses and clownfish still seem to be strong and avoiding any illness. Like you my 2 tangs are being hit the hardest. In the last 24 hours my Blue Tang's ich spots seems to have doubled.

I am now starting to wonder if I should take the 76 day "fallow" route in order to save my tangs. I have a 50 gallon tank I can rent and make into a QT but keeping 10 fish in a 50 gallon tank for 76 days seems cruel...

Is there a point where the spots will fall off and my tang will get some sort of chance to fight this off, or does the last 24 hours of doubling spots confirm that this is not going to fix itself...?

 

[Subsea]

My wrasses and clownfish still seem to be strong and avoiding any illness. Like you my 2 tangs are being hit the hardest. In the last 24 hours my Blue Tang's ich spots seems to have doubled.

I am now starting to wonder if I should take the 76 day "fallow" route in order to save my tangs. I have a 50 gallon tank I can rent and make into a QT but keeping 10 fish in a 50 gallon tank for 76 days seems cruel...

Is there a point where the spots will fall off and my tang will get some sort of chance to fight this off, or does the last 24 hours of doubling spots confirm that this is not going to fix itself...?

Do not make a rash decision. Allow fish immune system to work by reducing stress and feeding well. Any change now will exacerbate stress and weaken immune system. If fish are eating, that is a good sign. Continue using uv sterilizer while free swimming stage of ich life cycle shows to be abundan.

Now I address 72 day fallow cycle. Fifty years ago, when I started this reefer journey, scientific literature stated that most cyst dormancy was 14 days. Now we say 72 days. I say, “nature will find a way”.

 

[Tamberav]

My wrasses and clownfish still seem to be strong and avoiding any illness. Like you my 2 tangs are being hit the hardest. In the last 24 hours my Blue Tang's ich spots seems to have doubled.

I am now starting to wonder if I should take the 76 day "fallow" route in order to save my tangs. I have a 50 gallon tank I can rent and make into a QT but keeping 10 fish in a 50 gallon tank for 76 days seems cruel...

Is there a point where the spots will fall off and my tang will get some sort of chance to fight this off, or does the last 24 hours of doubling spots confirm that this is not going to fix itself...?

I did 45 days at 82 degrees.

Some people fishs succumb and some don't. If you wait too long and put them in copper then they die and people blame the copper but the fish was probably on it's way out already.

Anyways no one can tell you the future. Your fish my beat ich on their own... or they might not.

 

[Elliott ll]

I think with my number of fish a 50 gallon would be ammonia suicide anyways. I will need to wait until I purchase my next tank (200 gallons) to go fallow, I think... unless I do a bunch of rubbermaid tubs but that would be a nightmare in itself.

At this point I think I'm going for Ich management (uv sterilizer), and leave my clowns, wrasses, foxface, and trigger pair in DT... While keeping the 50 gallon tank as a quarantine/breeder tank, so when/if ich overwhelms a fish, I can net the infected fish and treat them in QT, then put back in DT after treatment hoping they build up some sort of resistance over time. Is this feasible to do?

 

[cancun]

I think with my number of fish a 50 gallon would be ammonia suicide anyways. I will need to wait until I purchase my next tank (200 gallons) to go fallow, I think... unless I do a bunch of rubbermaid tubs but that would be a nightmare in itself.

At this point I think I'm going for Ich management (uv sterilizer), and leave my clowns, wrasses, foxface, and trigger pair in DT... While keeping the 50 gallon tank as a quarantine/breeder tank, so when/if ich overwhelms a fish, I can net the infected fish and treat them in QT, then put back in DT after treatment hoping they build up some sort of resistance over time. Is this feasible to do?

Sorry it took me a bit to get back to you. That is feasible, but imo it might cause more stress to the fish. In my case I just rode it out. Excellent water quality, nutrition, plus the addition of the UV helped me. Ultimately it is your call though.