Ich in tanks

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Could I possibly just cut open the cartridge and dump out any excess carbon? Just putting a sliced open crap ball of fabric in there won't hurt if there's no carbon in it right?

Yes, but you’ll lose the bulk of the bacteria living on the carbon granules themselves.
Jay

 

[Cole_Voeller]

Yes, but you’ll lose the bulk of the bacteria living on the carbon granules themselves.
Jay

Ack. Well, any bacteria helps, so I don’t think think there’s any harm in it. But let’s say I missed some carbon, and it hasn’t been exhausted yet; would that lower the copper levels in the tank? Or would that just make the copper ineffective, and I would have no way of knowing? If it’s that latter, I might just pass on the used media altogether. Especially because it is disgusting and I don’t want to touch it XD.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Ack. Well, any bacteria helps, so I don’t think think there’s any harm in it. But let’s say I missed some carbon, and it hasn’t been exhausted yet; would that lower the copper levels in the tank? Or would that just make the copper ineffective, and I would have no way of knowing? If it’s that latter, I might just pass on the used media altogether. Especially because it is disgusting and I don’t want to touch it XD.

No, carbon is actually not very effective at removing copper, it is more of a “thing to avoid”….just be be safe.
You’ll soon know if you have enough bacteria - if the ammonia level increases in 24 hours, there isn’t enough beneficial bacteria present.
Jay

 

[Cole_Voeller]

No, carbon is actually not very effective at removing copper, it is more of a “thing to avoid”….just be be safe.
You’ll soon know if you have enough bacteria - if the ammonia level increases in 24 hours, there isn’t enough beneficial bacteria present.
Jay

Yeah. Unfortunately I already know there won’t be enough. It’s just a really small filter cartridge I just tossed in the AIO sump. I know there is some bacteria obviously, but the majority of it will be in the my rock and sand for sure.
Im gonna try what was suggested, getting some bacteria off of rock, and use water from the tanks (just for the first fill), as well as use a bacteria starter, though I know all to well won’t be enough.
One thing I wanted to ask, I know my Petco sells that Ammonia Reducing filter media- is that something that I can put in the filter to help? Or could that somehow affect the copper, or my PH or etc.?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Yeah. Unfortunately I already know there won’t be enough. It’s just a really small filter cartridge I just tossed in the AIO sump. I know there is some bacteria obviously, but the majority of it will be in the my rock and sand for sure.
Im gonna try what was suggested, getting some bacteria off of rock, and use water from the tanks (just for the first fill), as well as use a bacteria starter, though I know all to well won’t be enough.
One thing I wanted to ask, I know my Petco sells that Ammonia Reducing filter media- is that something that I can put in the filter to help? Or could that somehow affect the copper, or my PH or etc.?

Zeolite ammonia reducing media (likely what they are selling) only works in freshwater tanks.
Jay

 

[Cole_Voeller]

Zeolite ammonia reducing media (likely what they are selling) only works in freshwater tanks.
Jay

Ahh wack.
Good thing I just bought the normal stuff then. Is there anything similar that I can use? Or is just really frequent water changes and removing all uneaten food/poop the best I can do?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Ahh wack.
Good thing I just bought the normal stuff then. Is there anything similar that I can use? Or is just really frequent water changes and removing all uneaten food/poop the best I can do?

The bacteria in a bottle products like Fritzyme or Dr Tims can help add live bacteria to your tank. Water changes are tough to do since the ammonia can build up so quickly.
Jay

 

[Cole_Voeller]

The bacteria in a bottle products like Fritzyme or Dr Tims can help add live bacteria to your tank. Water changes are tough to do since the ammonia can build up so quickly.
Jay

I can check to see if my local stores have either of these. At the moment, all I have is Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacteria starter, if that works as effectively.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I can check to see if my local stores have either of these. At the moment, all I have is Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacteria starter, if that works as effectively.

I’ve never used that, but it should be equivalent to these other products.
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’ve never used that, but it should be equivalent to these other products.
Jay

Ive used the little white bottle,by brightwell and is a good product. So is MicroBacter XLM

 

[Cole_Voeller]

I’ve never used that, but it should be equivalent to these other products.
Jay

I think someone talked about this but I can’t find it- is prime to detoxify ammonia an option at all?

 

[Cole_Voeller]

I saw Humblefish said it was okay to use with Copper Power, but I haven’t seen anything regarding Coppersafe specifically.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I saw Humblefish said it was okay to use with Copper Power, but I haven’t seen anything regarding Coppersafe specifically.

I don’t trust Prime with any amine based copper. They make Cupramine and they say not to use it with that, but they don’t have anything to say about other company’s products. IMO a lot of “copper toxicity” people experience is based on using reducing agents with these copper products.
Jay

 

[Cole_Voeller]

Small little update on setting up the QT.
So I will have it ready and will add fish tomorrow rather than today. I was filling it with the water I bought, and I realized I would not be able to fill it enough. Checked the dimensions and looked online: it’s a 38 gallon tank. Since when is that even a thing. Anyway, guess I need to get more water tomorrow, but at least it’s an even larger volume of water to slow down ammonia build up.

 

[Cole_Voeller]

I’ve been reading on a lot of studies regarding the fallow period, and I found this interesting one by Humblefish.

New Ich Fallow Period

First off, I must thank @victoly for bringing this recent study to my attention: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617317544 It has now been peer-reviewed and the findings verified by other scientists. I'd also like to share a couple of other related studies (below)...

humble.fish

It says that a tank at 86° can be fallow for just two weeks to rid the tank of ich. I personally won’t risk this, but could I do 86° for the 45 days and have a better success rate then if I did 81° for 45 days? Also in reading, I see that having high flow is incredibly important, as well as blasting all the rock and sand out and using a gravel vac. I will likely do this a few times right at the start of my fallow period. Thoughts?

 

[52728299]

I’ve been reading on a lot of studies regarding the fallow period, and I found this interesting one by Humblefish.

New Ich Fallow Period

First off, I must thank @victoly for bringing this recent study to my attention: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617317544 It has now been peer-reviewed and the findings verified by other scientists. I'd also like to share a couple of other related studies (below)...

humble.fish

It says that a tank at 86° can be fallow for just two weeks to rid the tank of ich. I personally won’t risk this, but could I do 86° for the 45 days and have a better success rate then if I did 81° for 45 days? Also in reading, I see that having high flow is incredibly important, as well as blasting all the rock and sand out and using a gravel vac. I will likely do this a few times right at the start of my fallow period. Thoughts?

Someone else will know for sure I left my tank at 78° for my 45 day fallow. I'd think just doing the extra time would benefit you more than keep raising the temp if you are concerned tho. Have you read the sticky with Jay's current qt protocol? Imo this is all you need to know..

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Also

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

you can very much trust what Jay has written here

 

[benmed]

No - fishless for 45 to 60 days if you had an outbreak and coppersafe is similar to copperpower
76 days was old rule and studies have shown lifecycle of ich is much shorter

You have literature to support the less than 76 days? what is your suggested algorithm? I would be pretty cautious about changing time tested techniques. Would be very annoying to do 50 days, then have the problem come back. My assumption (bad to assume) is that even if the life cycle is 50 days, you want to take more than 2 standard deviations away from the norm to ensure that every single organism is gone. If the life cycle average is 50 days, going 51 days is going to leave you with a problem. Unless someone posts some sort of scientific research showing that a shorter fallow period works, then I would not do it.

 

[52728299]

You have literature to support the less than 76 days? what is your suggested algorithm? I would be pretty cautious about changing time tested techniques. Would be very annoying to do 50 days, then have the problem come back. My assumption (bad to assume) is that even if the life cycle is 50 days, you want to take more than 2 standard deviations away from the norm to ensure that every single organism is gone. If the life cycle average is 50 days, going 51 days is going to leave you with a problem. Unless someone posts some sort of scientific research showing that a shorter fallow period works, then ...

Have you read this thread. Think Jay breaks it down..

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[vetteguy53081]

You have literature to support the less than 76 days? what is your suggested algorithm? I would be pretty cautious about changing time tested techniques. Would be very annoying to do 50 days, then have the problem come back. My assumption (bad to assume) is that even if the life cycle is 50 days, you want to take more than 2 standard deviations away from the norm to ensure that every single organism is gone. If the life cycle average is 50 days, going 51 days is going to leave you with a problem. Unless someone posts some sort of scientific research showing that a shorter fallow period works, then I would not do it.

I go to many seminars and pet industry shows and studies over the last two decades have shown the life cycle of ich especially at higher temps (80.5 deg) is shortened to 45 day and for that I recommend 45-60 days as an assurance they are dead,
You can go with 76, 106 and so forth but this guy has not had ich in well over a decade or longer and have close to 40 fish in current tank