Ich in the aquarium. So what?

[flsalty]

It's easy to say "so what" if you don't care about losing fish. I do agree that healthy, well fed fish are more prone to fighting off parasites and diseases. I'm not looking to have a sterile tank. I just don't want to introduce things if I can help it.

If my tank has ich and all the fish are healthy and doing fine, then it's not a problem,,,as long as I don't add any more fish. Any new fish I add is likely to be stressed. Those stressed fish are more likely to succumb. If I don't have ich in my tank and I introduce an infected fish, my fish are more likely to succumb. It just makes sense to me to be proactive.

 

[ca1ore]

Most aquariums run their fish only systems at a low salinity for that reason.

A perpetuated myth I'm sorry to say. Maybe it's different down-under, but here in the US it's principally to reduce salt costs (while perhaps being a tad easier on the fish). For hypo to be effective against ich it needs to be 1.010 to 1.013. None of the places I buy fish are anywhere close to that, more like 1.017 - 1.020. Many places do run low levels of copper to mask symptoms though. Yet another reason to do your own QT.

 

[ca1ore]

If my tank has ich and all the fish are healthy and doing fine, then it's not a problem,,,as long as I don't add any more fish. Any new fish I add is likely to be stressed. Those stressed fish are more likely to succumb. If I don't have ich in my tank and I introduce an infected fish, my fish are more likely to succumb. It just makes sense to me to be proactive.

One of the underappreciated benefits of proper QT is that you can 'gently' acclimate and condition a new fish so that when it does, hopefully, get released to the display the stress is minimized. I have a mild strain of ich active in my tank, yet I am able to successfully add new fish. As I noted above,a few show some spots initially though most do not. But, I run all new fish through at least 4 weeks (usually more) of QT where I feed them many times per day. Unless a fish is observably free of any disease symptoms AND at a healthy weight, it's not ready for the big tank.

 

[MnFish1]

The affect of stress on a fish's immune system has been widely studied, at least in the correlation with cortisol levels and immunity, and been shown to be a big factor regarding immunity.

Yes, most fish from an LFS or that have been shipped are very stresses, hence why qt is a very good idea.
When an established fish bites a new fish they actually take in the cortisol rich mucus.

Studies have shown elevated cortisol disrupts a fish's ability to produce their slime coat.

A healthy, even slime coat is a fish's first line of defense against parasites. An uneven slime coat gives an opening for parasites to 'latch on'.

Agreed - The reason I responded to your first post was because I thought you were implying that because healthy fish have immunity - that QT wasn't needed. though some studies suggest that effects on the immune system are only apparent after severe and prolonged stress. There are also studies that one fish chasing another can raise cortisol levels. For example - my guess that the stress on fish shipped overnight is much more likely to be a problem than fish taken from an LFS and put into the tank an hour later . The other problem with some of these studies is 'are the changes clinically significant'. I.e. cortisol levels can change the slime coat - but does that lead to increased mortality.

 

[pecan2phat]

Almost all the stores that I have been to in CT & LI all run their salinity at 1.015~1.018 and a low dose of copper. Your almost forced to utilize a QT just because of the salinity difference. Somehow i just don’t think that acclimating for a .010 ppt in 60 minutes does well for stress levels on new additions let alone all the other factors already discussed.
Even fish that I’ve gotten from Live Aquaria has been 1.018 ppt lately whereas years ago, they were more towards 1.023~1.025.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Agreed - The reason I responded to your first post was because I thought you were implying that because healthy fish have immunity - that QT wasn't needed. though some studies suggest that effects on the immune system are only apparent after severe and prolonged stress. There are also studies that one fish chasing another can raise cortisol levels. For example - my guess that the stress on fish shipped overnight is much more likely to be a problem than fish taken from an LFS and put into the tank an hour later . The other problem with some of these studies is 'are the changes clinically significant'. I.e. cortisol levels can change the slime coat - but does that lead to increased mortality.

The abstracts of several studies say there was a "significant increase" in mortality, but the percentages were not in the abstract.

Almost all the stores that I have been to in CT & LI all run their salinity at 1.015~1.018 and a low dose of copper. Your almost forced to utilize a QT just because of the salinity difference. Somehow i just don’t think that acclimating for a .010 ppt in 60 minutes does well for stress levels on new additions let alone all the other factors already discussed.
Even fish that I’ve gotten from Live Aquaria has been 1.018 ppt lately whereas years ago, they were more towards 1.023~1.025.

There is at least one store in CT that keeps salinity between 1.022-26.

 

[MnFish1]

The abstracts of several studies say there was a "significant increase" in mortality, but the percentages were not in the abstract.

The present study aimed to determine whether protection is conferred by immunization of grouper, Epinephelus coioides, against a protozoan parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans. The immunization of E. coioides was carried out by a low level exposure of fish to live C. irritanstheronts from predetermined number of tomonts and by an intraperitoneal injection of a vaccine consisting of formalin-killed C. irritans theronts.

In the vaccine-immunization experiment, no mortality was monitored in fish that received high dose vaccine (100 μg/fish), while 40% cumulative mortality and 100% cumulative mortality were recorded in low dose group (10 μg/fish) and control group (PBS-injected), respectively. In the succeeding replicate, the vaccine-immunized group (high dose) had 37.5% cumulative mortality and 100% cumulative mortality for the control.

 

[Luno]

A perpetuated myth I'm sorry to say. Maybe it's different down-under, but here in the US it's principally to reduce salt costs (while perhaps being a tad easier on the fish). For hypo to be effective against ich it needs to be 1.010 to 1.013. None of the places I buy fish are anywhere close to that, more like 1.017 - 1.020. Many places do run low levels of copper to mask symptoms though. Yet another reason to do your own QT.

Probably true man, just what my lfs has told me why they do it. Although I couldn't imagine how much salt an aquarium would go through! Ours use NSW as we're on the coast line. Most of us just use NSW easy to access and cheap lol.

 

[MnFish1]

Locally you can find Mersa, vibrio and a host of other horrible things in the general environment.
Once you start reading up on this stuff you will want to hide in the house for a week like an older Howard Hughes.
For the most part, people with already compromised immune systems and the elderly and small children are the most vulnerable to these things.
Normal healthy non-alcoholic adults mostly get to stay that way.
(Thankfully).

People with compromised immune systems (which includes the elderly and children) are most vulnerable to infections - for sure. There is a difference between each of these diseases and ich in an aquarium. The conditions in an aquarium are not the same as living in the 'free world'. I guarantee you - there would be a lot of 'healthy people' getting MRSA skin infections if you kept them in close quarters with a high enough concentration of MRSA (and thats mostly what MRSA causes). There is a difference, though in 100 healthy people getting a 'cold' because 99.99999% of them will survive, as compared to 100 people getting lets say 'ebola' or small pox. Ich or velvet in an unexposed fish is much more like ebola than a cold (or MRSA or Vibrio)

As cultured (i.e. fish not exposed to Ich in the wild) become more common - I think adding those fish to tanks with slight ich infestations will become more problematic. You may have been lucky - your fish store may have a QT system (the one I go to does). Or you may be getting fish with limited immunity to Ich already - which means they dont produce enough to cause a full outbreak (unless they are stressed). I never had any ich at all - until I bought 1 small fish from an un named internet store. it looked fine - in fact - it was the only one of the 20 other fish in my tank that survived.

All of these things depend on 'dose' as well as 'immunity'. Google LD50 or ID50 - they apply to bacteria as well as parasites.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread!

It has been a great learning experience for me and I hope others can benefit from it in the future.

 

[norfolkgarden]

All of these things depend on 'dose' as well as 'immunity'. Google LD50 or ID50 - they apply to bacteria as well as parasites.

Familiar with LD50 from a landscaping pesticides applicator permit years ago.

Interesting analogy.

Curious about the farm bred fish and lack of Ich resistance. I always thought tank bred meant a likely higher resistance to Ich, etc. instead of a lower resistance.

I guess I can see where they would be more like an industrial pig farm setting where things are kept as sterile as possible to keep infections from running rampant in too close quarters.

 

[chefjpaul]

I managed ich for years, wouldn't have a problem doing it again.... except for that pesky velvet tornado that ripped through my tank creating chaos and mass deaths.

So, to not QT?

IF it was just for ich, ok, but I think with all the modern facilities, transportation, collecting and trading in our hobby, breeding diseases in and throughout the hobby spreading like the black plague after a Toba Catastrophe creating a non norm the norm.

This hobby went from 700k saltwater hobbyist to 2.5 million within 6-7 years, that tells me the turnover is massive, creating an unfriendly, non-established standards to turn and burn product transporting not just our beautiful fishies and exotic corals, but the nuisances along with it. Along with many new hobbyist adds many immature tanks, stressed fish, not being a control naturally.

 

[eatbreakfast]

This hobby went from 700k saltwater hobbyist to 2.5 million within 6-7 years, that tells me the turnover is massive, creating an unfriendly, non-established standards to turn and burn product transporting not just our beautiful fishies and exotic corals, but the nuisances along with it. Along with many new hobbyist adds many immature tanks, stressed fish, not being a control naturally.

That sort of growth speaks to less turn over. If there were high turn over, those entering the hobby would just replace those leaving.

We are also amid the time that more fish are being collected ethically than ever before and more collectors are learning to capture ethically. More species are aquacultured and maricultured. Knowledge in accurately diagnosing and treating diseases is more available than ever before.

There certainly is room for improvement, and some old timers on the collection and wholesale side of things are stuck in their ways, but since we on the hobby end are aware of some of these dangers, we therefore have the responsibility to qt to do the best for the well being of the animals in our care.

 

[chefjpaul]

That sort of growth speaks to less turn over. If there were high turn over, those entering the hobby would just replace those leaving.

We are also amid the time that more fish are being collected ethically than ever before and more collectors are learning to capture ethically. More species are aquacultured and maricultured. Knowledge in accurately diagnosing and treating diseases is more available than ever before.

There certainly is room for improvement, and some old timers on the collection and wholesale side of things are stuck in their ways, but since we on the hobby end are aware of some of these dangers, we therefore have the responsibility to qt to do the best for the well being of the animals in our care.

Agree,

Higher turn over in terms of more collecting, more trading, more cross contaminating etc...

I am fully in QT mode from now on.

As a chef, I also see what happens to product when demand is high, quality control goes down as production of perishable and livestock can't compete with demand. This is actually no different.
Yes, I agree that vendors, hobbyist, ethics are getting much better, that doesn't change the "cross contamination factor" when yeilds are much higher, turning over more product in sale or trade in a larger mass scale, thing will slip through constantly.

 

[rkpetersen]

I had crypto early on in the 100g reef tank I set up 7 months ago. Brought in by a hippo tang who looked fine in the store (no surprise there). A few other fish got it as well. Just kept the water quality immaculate, good flow everywhere, 100 micron filter socks, and a skimmer with ozone going. No one died, and the spots just gradually stopped appearing. It's been 4 months now without a trace of the disease, 22 fish thriving including that fat and sassy blue tang that started it all. Had a virtually identical experience with crypto with my first reef tank many years ago, as well.

I'm not suggesting that it's ok to go without a qt. It's not. I should have one. To avoid velvet and flukes getting into the dt, and to treat any sick fish that I might actually manage to catch. (And I should quarantine corals too, not just dip them, so that's yet another tank.) But if the only risk of not quarantining were crypto, qt probably wouldn't be as important; the disease can burn itself out quickly in a healthy reef tank.

 

[eatbreakfast]

There are fewer wholesalers now than there were 10-15years.

The locales where collecting is occurring has remained about the same throughout that time.

Collectors aren't charging any more money for common fish.

It's not so much a matter of cross contamination as much as it is a case of pathogens adapting to institutionalized measures. We've seen it with human and livestock diseases that have become resistant to conventional treatments.

 

[chefjpaul]

There are fewer wholesalers now than there were 10-15years.

The locales where collecting is occurring has remained about the same throughout that time.

Collectors aren't charging any more money for common fish.

It's not so much a matter of cross contamination as much as it is a case of pathogens adapting to institutionalized measures. We've seen it with human and livestock diseases that have become resistant to conventional treatments.

I agree with the adaptations, we have seen it with humans and disease, even massive allergic reactions / almost a mutation
But, When one has fewer production lines pushing more products through, the line gets broken.

While there are many factors, we can't pinpoint one ideal, and shut down another while they are all connected.

Im not here to bash retailers, collectors etc.. its just the modern world we live in and need to adapt, hence, I now QT everything.

Not to change subject, but the same principle can be applied to the dino, threads that have grown dramatically, the mass amount of corals moving, trading, sharing waters, spreading contaminants, as they dont just appear.(Just for examples).
I probably could tell a story if velvet whopping my tank of fish, yet it wasn't introduced by a fish.

 

[JasPR]

this works for me ( unless the problem is gill flukes) with very little in the way of losses and great recovery time--- Sat the very first sign of spots or clouded fins--do a daily water change of 20-25% AND LOWER the S.G. over a few days to 1016. If you use RO/DI water, make sure it is buffered. add over 48 hours, a 1/2 recommended Cupramine dose. once up to that level on the test kit, have a premix of that same dose in your water change vat with adjusted SG of 1016-1018. do water changes daily if possible ( 20%). This will keep the water quality very high ( note your algae will disappear) and the low specific gravity will be helpful to fish with irritated gills. The 1/2 dose of cupramine is mild and the daily 20% reintroduction of a 1/2 dose will help keep the theraputic levels fresh and replace that which is taken up by sand and dead coral/rock. In repeated experiences I have never had more than a 10% loss rate. which, if you have had a bad case of it/velvet, you will know that 30-50% looses are normal. And total wipe outs are usually due to the first five days going untreated-- or the presence of a lot of new unacclimated fish in the population ( owned less than 2 months).

 

[MnFish1]

There are fewer wholesalers now than there were 10-15years.

The locales where collecting is occurring has remained about the same throughout that time.

Collectors aren't charging any more money for common fish.

It's not so much a matter of cross contamination as much as it is a case of pathogens adapting to institutionalized measures. We've seen it with human and livestock diseases that have become resistant to conventional treatments.

This

I had crypto early on in the 100g reef tank I set up 7 months ago. Brought in by a hippo tang who looked fine in the store (no surprise there). A few other fish got it as well. Just kept the water quality immaculate, good flow everywhere, 100 micron filter socks, and a skimmer with ozone going. No one died, and the spots just gradually stopped appearing. It's been 4 months now without a trace of the disease, 22 fish thriving including that fat and sassy blue tang that started it all. Had a virtually identical experience with crypto with my first reef tank many years ago, as well.

I'm not suggesting that it's ok to go without a qt. It's not. I should have one. To avoid velvet and flukes getting into the dt, and to treat any sick fish that I might actually manage to catch. (And I should quarantine corals too, not just dip them, so that's yet another tank.) But if the only risk of not quarantining were crypto, qt probably wouldn't be as important; the disease can burn itself out quickly in a healthy reef tank.

If you are not suggesting that its not ok to go without a quarantine - what difference does the rest make? I used to be a 'believer' in the keep the fish healthy and all will be good as well - so im not unsympathetic to your position. But..... Its just another anecdote - and the problem with the lethality of cryptocaryon relates to so many more things than what youre talking about...

There is a lot of evidence that if you add fish from one area - consistently - to your tank you will have less problems with ich. But - if you add a Caribbean fish to a Hawaiian fish there could be significant problems. There are areas in Australia where the incidence of cryptocaryon in fish (in the ocean) are quite a high percent. These fish - transferred to your tank may have no problems. - depending on where your other fish come from....

From (at least the LFS I deal with) - the fish they import ALL come from the same area. Thus - they may all have limited or full immunity to the CI (I propose this as a new abbreviation on R2R (God knows there are plenty) for Cryptocaryon Irritans. So - what you're saying might not apply at all to someone buying one week from AB C.com - and the next week from XYz.com.

FWIW - I think (and this is a total personal opinion - undocumented - etc) I have never had a problem with flukes - besides abject paranoia 0- im not sure where this comes from (Note - see - this is my experience - Im not trying to say - dont worry about flukes - just - I have never ever had a problem with them - thus I would never empirically treat for them in a QT tank)

 

[Brad Vaughn]

I managed ich for years, wouldn't have a problem doing it again.... except for that pesky velvet tornado that ripped through my tank creating chaos and mass deaths.

So, to not QT?

IF it was just for ich, ok, but I think with all the modern facilities, transportation, collecting and trading in our hobby, breeding diseases in and throughout the hobby spreading like the black plague after a Toba Catastrophe creating a non norm the norm.

This hobby went from 700k saltwater hobbyist to 2.5 million within 6-7 years, that tells me the turnover is massive, creating an unfriendly, non-established standards to turn and burn product transporting not just our beautiful fishies and exotic corals, but the nuisances along with it. Along with many new hobbyist adds many immature tanks, stressed fish, not being a control naturally.

This ...

After velvet I now at and treat. It was stressful and heartbreaking.