Ich infection rate in the wild

[atoll]

Lets not pretend Paul is alone in having g success not QTing. 35/40 years ago my tanks would get itch but since I have been doing what I do I might see itch with some fish first introduced as I have done when introducing the itch magnets Royal grammas but within 36 hours the few spots have gone and no other fish appears infected. I don't add mud as we dont live in a tropical climate (UK) but everything else is very similar. I have friends here that do very similar to me and have no issues with disease. I don't keep tangs but have done in the past without major itch problems. One of my best friends does keep tangs notably regal and powder blue among others again no itch problems. Now we are sure itch exists in our tanks but our fish show no outward signs of it. Personally I have kept maybe 10 tanks or so over the last 30 plus years and not had a single outbreak of itch. My friends report similar. We use live rock and plenty of it, have sand on the bottom of our tanks, we make much of our own foods, add fish and krill oils to our foods, some use ozone 24/7 or at timed times. I don't use ozone but use an Oxydator. The list goes on. Fish live long lives, many spawn. Paul's none QT works well for him, those of my friends and I work for us. Whatever works for you stick with it as there is no reason to change a winning way.

 

[ScottR]

@Humblefish @Paul B Have to say love watching you two go back and forth with qt or not. It's very informative and hopefully helps new people to reefs like me understand different ways to do things. Both areas seem to be alot of work. Keep up the debate we are learning

Two very different systems for sure. I prefer the drop and plop fish into my tank. I don’t even quarantine. Never had a parasite except for once in a tank that I used dry rock in. Live rock was the key for me. Whatever magic is in that stuff has kept my fish thriving. I have seen white spots on my fish before but they went away. I guess it has something to do with biodiversity. Interesting study though. It seems ich lives out its life cycle and falls back depending on temperature. I oddly run my tank cooler in winter and warmer in summer so this could be a good reason for it. I do 25C in winter and 27c in summer.

 

[tautog83]

Those infected fish seem to lose those parasites as soon as they hit my tank.

I have also been collecting fish all my life, and I'm old, and throwing them in my tank. Baby flounders, sea robins, baby stripped bass, needlefish, pipefish, seahorses etc and I have never had any disease but I have only been doing them for 50 or so years so maybe in 51 years you have a problem. ;Bucktooth

Hope that striper was over 28". Lol

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish @Paul B Have to say love watching you two go back and forth with qt or not. It's very informative and hopefully helps new people to reefs like me understand different ways to do things. Both areas seem to be alot of work. Keep up the debate we are learning

Helping new hobbyists is my primary objective. You can take away all of my medications, and I'll still be able to wing it because I've learned enough about disease management. But newbies have enough to learn/figure out, without adding "battle fish parasites in my DT" to their daily routine. The problem becomes exacerbated in a young aquarium that has not yet fully stabilized. Fish diseases don't seem to be as big of an issue in mature tanks for some unknown reason(s).

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

I think it would be interesting to hear from some LFS owners on this. Do they get a lot of new people in the hobby who start up tanks and then report everything died? Does it differ in the way those people set up their new tanks?

When I was brand new to the hobby, before I knew about R2R, I went to a small LFS in the area to ask for advice about how to start out. This particular LFS owner advised me to start with all live rock and live sand. He told me that a lot of other stores add chemicals to their tanks to try and make their fish "look" healthier, but he preferred natural methods. I now realize he was talking about stores running low levels of copper in their tanks. That particular tank is still running 3 years later (not much in the grand scheme I know) but has never had an ich outbreak or seen a single spot that I can remember. The second tank I have, I started after joining R2R and reading about the horrors of hitchhikers, so I started with all dry rock and had a bad ich (or maybe velvet) outbreak that killed all the fish a few months later. My current on-going build, a 310g will be started with 100% live rock. No fear of scary gorilla crabs anymore, lol.

So anyway, I think there's no right answer here, and everyone should do what equals the most success for them, but it really would be interesting to hear various experiences from LFS owners that might interact with newbies that we never meet here.

 

[Humblefish]

When I was brand new to the hobby, before I knew about R2R, I went to a small LFS in the area to ask for advice about how to start out. This particular LFS owner advised me to start with all live rock and live sand. He told me that a lot of other stores add chemicals to their tanks to try and make their fish "look" healthier, but he preferred natural methods. I now realize he was talking about stores running low levels of copper in their tanks. That particular tank is still running 3 years later (not much in the grand scheme I know) but has never had an ich outbreak or seen a single spot that I can remember. The second tank I have, I started after joining R2R and reading about the horrors of hitchhikers, so I started with all dry rock and had a bad ich (or maybe velvet) outbreak that killed all the fish a few months later. My current on-going build, a 310g will be started with 100% live rock. No fear of scary gorilla crabs anymore, lol.

There may be a correlation because back in the day most started their tank with live rock/sand, and we didn't have anywhere near the disease problems which seem so rampant today. Maybe LR contains natural predators of parasite tomonts? And maybe it takes awhile for these to get introduced (via frags, chaeto, inverts) when you start out with everything sterile. ;Doctor

The FB groups around me are having a rough go of it (fish disease problems). And it's primarily young guys with young tanks starting out with all dry rock/sand. Nothing ever gets quarantined. They exit the hobby almost as fast as they get in.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Helping new hobbyists is my primary objective. You can take away all of my medications, and I'll still be able to wing it because I've learned enough about disease management. But newbies have enough to learn/figure out, without adding "battle fish parasites in my DT" to their daily routine. The problem becomes exacerbated in a young aquarium that has not yet fully stabilized. Fish diseases don't seem to be as big of an issue in mature tanks for some unknown reason(s).

I have always been intrigued about what is keeping these parasites at bay in very mature tanks. I have seen velvet management for years until he sold his system. As soon as the new owner moved to his house the entire fish population died within a week. Nothing new was added prior to the move for at least 6 months.

The Facebook marketplace has become very interesting for me. I see full setups for sale and the fish quite clearly have an outbreak of external parasites based on the pictures. Haven't contacted any of those sellers, but I might start and try to get more information on what's going on with their fish.

 

[WvAquatics]

This is interesting how the more live rock used seems less issues with disease. Could def be microorganisms that help combat the parasites. Maybe my first build will have more live rock than planned. I was planning on using live ocean sand also.

 

[Big G]

I admire Natural tanks. I have for decades run planted freshwater tanks that have never seen the addition of any medicines or any chemical additives. The fish have lived long lives, and I have found doing so very rewarding and relaxing.
However, our saltwater tanks are a bit different. And unfortunately, as Humble pointed out, newbies either don't understand the differences or they are getting poor advice from friends, LFS, manufacturers, or other sources. So, in this Forum area, we do triage. It's often not pretty. But people want help. And often they are upset and "demand" help. That's the challenge.

 

[Paul B]

About 3 minutes ago I added a copperband after 5 minutes of acclimation.

I had to rush in and out of a LFS so I didn't even see the fish. It may be covered in ich, velvet and corona virus. I hope not but we will see.

 

[KrisReef]

You may have to read it three times to get the full effect.

It's the same with quarantining, if you don't follow it word for word, you can have problems.

I designed my method over 40+ years with many failures as it doesn't happen over night. It is similar with quarantining, there are things that must be done correctly and that is where people start to have trouble with both systems.

Right near here, maybe 8 miles away is the largest Corona infection in NY, Southold. So we don't go there.

We were supposed to go there for an Oysterfest, but of course that is cancelled.

My wife read the book and she still over-feeds the fish when I am not home.

@Paul B : Aren't you afraid of getting Ich because your raw oysters were cancelled with the Oysterfest?

I'm still trying to figure out all the ways to your methods. I only get the part about the Super Models. That part is reproducible in my mind.


Thanks guys.
Kris

 

[Humblefish]

I only get the part about the Super Models. That part is reproducible in my mind.

We all agree that Super Models can make life better.

 

[Paul B]

Cancelling the oysterfest is a big disappointment to me (and my fish)

We just came back from a restaurant we go to on Mondays because Veterans eat for half price. They are closing at 8:00 by law as all restaurants in NY have to close tonight at 8:00 for who knows how long.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Fish temperament and knowing what fish to add is also huge learning curve. Those fish stores that get a new hobbyist setup with fish in a dry rock system in under a week are the same ones that will say of course you can have 3 firefish, an algae blenny and yellow tang in this 55 gallon. Then a week later the only living fish is the blenny, and a yellow tang covered in white spots.

Would be great if lfs(es) is there a plural to that? Lol. Would only sell fish they know what other fish can cohabit peacefully with it. The fish we receive are already so stressed out and then to get aggression added on top of it.

When i look at 20+ year tanks they all have one thing in common. Fish that were selected to live with one another. Regardless if its a qt or parasite management system. You do not see @Paul B or @atoll adding a giant aggressive trigger fish because its pretty and will fit their tank size.

 

[Big G]

Cancelling the oysterfest is a big disappointment to me (and my fish)

We just came back from a restaurant we go to on Mondays because Veterans eat for half price. They are closing at 8:00 by law as all restaurants in NY have to close tonight at 8:00 for who knows how long.

Here in Oregon, they just announced that restaurants can only do take out or delivery. No eat in at all.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Here in Oregon, they just announced that restaurants can only do take out or delivery. No eat in at all.

Made sure i hit the liquor store on my way home today. No idea when the one near me is opening again lol.

 

[Paul B]

You do not see @Paul B or @atoll adding a giant aggressive trigger fish because its pretty and will fit their tank size.

Dam, I forgot to pick up that Lionfish, moray eel and giant grouper when I bought those clown gobies as they get along so well. ;Wideyed

Restaurants here also only have take out now. But I have a 23 mile wide water way behind my house so I could go fishing.

I could also take my boat but it makes a lot of noise when I run it in the parking lot and that shrink wrap flies all over the roads. ;Bucktooth

My fish never fight. They don't even text emoji's at each other because they are so happy to be in a natural tank they don't know weather to poop or go blind.

I hope the copperband I bought last night is still alive. If they live a day, they live forever. (usually)

 

[Gareth elliott]

Dam, I forgot to pick up that Lionfish, moray eel and giant grouper when I bought those clown gobies as they get along so well. ;Wideyed

Restaurants here also only have take out now. But I have a 23 mile wide water way behind my house so I could go fishing.

I could also take my boat but it makes a lot of noise when I run it in the parking lot and that shrink wrap flies all over the roads. ;Bucktooth

My fish never fight. They don't even text emoji's at each other because they are so happy to be in a natural tank they don't know weather to poop or go blind.

I hope the copperband I bought last night is still alive. If they live a day, they live forever. (usually)

The first salt water tank we had when i was 10 maybe. We had gone seining during the summer in New Jersey and caught a few butterflies that had swam up the gulf stream.
Was a wet/dry sump with bio balls.
Fish only, the internet was quite different in 95’ as it is today, most information came from books still. Can’t say I remember seeing many books on reef keeping in the library lol.

But we had four eyes, Atlantic long nose, and another species or two that normally live in North Carolina to Florida. I still want to one day have another tank of mainly butterflies again. But room for a spare 125+ is another story lol.

 

[Paul B]

Fish only, the internet was quite different in 95’ as it is today,

When I started keeping fish in the fifties the internet was what was in the bottom of the net.

 

[Gareth elliott]

When I started keeping fish in the fifties the internet was what was in the bottom of the net.

I think it explains a lot that. Now that we know you talk fish.