Ich on yellow tang in QT?

Kingston · Nov 17, 2020

I have 3 yellow tangs in QT with copper power at 2.35 for past 12 days. I just saw bumps and whit spots on the skin, a small hole in the dorsal fin, a white patch on one of the fins. Could ich develop in fish in cupped?

fishguy242 · Nov 17, 2020

hi,pics would be very helpful when experts arrive

@Jay Hemdal #reefsquad

Reefahholic · Nov 17, 2020

Kingston said:
I have 3 yellow tangs in QT with copper power at 2.35 for past 12 days. I just saw bumps and whit spots on the skin, a small hole in the dorsal fin, a white patch on one of the fins. Could ich develop in fish in cupped?

It shouldn’t at that level. If you had it at 2.35 for 12 days Ich should be completely controlled. Are you sure it’s Ich?

May I see a picture?

JasonK84 · Nov 17, 2020

Kingston said:
I have 3 yellow tangs in QT with copper power at 2.35 for past 12 days. I just saw bumps and whit spots on the skin, a small hole in the dorsal fin, a white patch on one of the fins. Could ich develop in fish in cupped?

Really going to need some pics to properly diagnose. Shouldn’t be ich if your copper levels are really 2.35.

Which copper and copper test kit are you using?

Jay Hemdal · Nov 17, 2020

Hi,

As the others said, pictures are helpful - taken under white light. Video sometimes helps judge the fish's overall demeanor. Additional helpful background information is listed in the sticky at the top of this forum, or by clicking the link below my name here.

I presume that you are measuring copper with a Hanna Checker (since you reported to two decimal places)?

Jay

nereefpat · Nov 17, 2020

My guess would be lymphocystis, which is common after treating with copper.

Kingston · Nov 17, 2020

I did a FWD last night with MB. Got back from work this evening and this guy has red sores....

Kingston · Nov 17, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Hi,

As the others said, pictures are helpful - taken under white light. Video sometimes helps judge the fish's overall demeanor. Additional helpful background information is listed in the sticky at the top of this forum, or by clicking the link below my name here.

I presume that you are measuring copper with a Hanna Checker (since you reported to two decimal places)?

Jay

Yes Jay.... I am using a Hanna checker.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 17, 2020

I don't see definitive ich, but it could be there. Multiple problems at the same time are pretty common. I do see the fish's respiration is elevated, that's concerning to me, as is the redness. The fin damage isn't life threatening. Do you have another ammonia measuring device than just the Alert badge? You might want to double check that.

Did the breathing rate improve after the FWD? Sorry, what is "MB"?

Jay

Kingston · Nov 17, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
I don't see definitive ich, but it could be there. Multiple problems at the same time are pretty common. I do see the fish's respiration is elevated, that's concerning to me, as is the redness. The fin damage isn't life threatening. Do you have another ammonia measuring device than just the Alert badge? You might want to double check that.

Did the breathing rate improve after the FWD? Sorry, what is "MB"?

Jay

I have a Red Sea test kit for ammonia. The breathing this bad yesterday. Seem to be worse today and there was no redness. MB is methylene blue.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 17, 2020

OK, short term methylene blue isn't effective against any diseases really, but it does help keep the fish calm (dark) during a dip and it can act as a substitute oxygen donor.

Very worrisome that the breathing seems worse after the dip, I always like to see at least some temporary relief from those, it means we know something to use to buy more time.

I remember working at a wholesale place back in the 1970s and the yellow tangs would all come in and develop erythema, similar to this. I just always assumed it was ammonia burns....thus me going down that rabbit hole.

Sorry I don't have a definitive direction for you to go with this: If it were flukes the FWD should have brought it some relief. It could be a bacterial disease, if that was systemic, it would account for the rapid breathing and red skin. Copper treatments need to run right at the point of causing toxic reactions with the fish - and those symptoms vary, but can include rapid breathing and skin issues. Finally, in some cases, the copper just doesn't control a problem fully and a protozoan just sort of festers, despite the copper being at seemingly good levels.

If it were my fish, I would keep it in copper and dose the tank with a broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic like Neoplex or Kanaplex.

Jay

Kingston · Nov 17, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
OK, short term methylene blue isn't effective against any diseases really, but it does help keep the fish calm (dark) during a dip and it can act as a substitute oxygen donor.

Very worrisome that the breathing seems worse after the dip, I always like to see at least some temporary relief from those, it means we know something to use to buy more time.

I remember working at a wholesale place back in the 1970s and the yellow tangs would all come in and develop erythema, similar to this. I just always assumed it was ammonia burns....thus me going down that rabbit hole.

Sorry I don't have a definitive direction for you to go with this: If it were flukes the FWD should have brought it some relief. It could be a bacterial disease, if that was systemic, it would account for the rapid breathing and red skin. Copper treatments need to run right at the point of causing toxic reactions with the fish - and those symptoms vary, but can include rapid breathing and skin issues. Finally, in some cases, the copper just doesn't control a problem fully and a protozoan just sort of festers, despite the copper being at seemingly good levels.

If it were my fish, I would keep it in copper and dose the tank with a broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic like Neoplex or Kanaplex.

Jay

.
Thanks I was actually getting ready to dose kanamycin now. Just checking the dose.

Reefahholic · Nov 17, 2020

I’d love to clip a piece off that fin where it’s frayed and look at it under the scope. You’d be amazed at what you can find sometimes around the frayed fins. May be nothing though.

Being that his breathing is not normal something is probably going on. The pics are hard to see, but if he’s acting super erratic it will likely be the beginning of Velvet. Let’s hope not! With Ich, they will breath faster sometimes, but they aren’t as agitated because Ich attacks the body more than the gills with lower numbers. This is subject to tank volume.

Either way...tank transfers combined with FW dips help reduce the numbers and give the fish some relief. Only do this if the fish is getting bad.

Think of it like this. I’ll give you a simple analogy.

You step in a Fire Ant Mound. All the ants rush out and crawl onto your foot. If you keeping standing on the mound, they will grow in numbers and overwhelm your foot. If you quickly remove your foot and get away from the mound, you’ve reduced the numbers tremendously and reduced the amount of trauma to your foot which can be very helpful in the coming weeks especially for the fish.

Same concept when you perform a tank transfer for a fish. This is why I try to quickly get up to a therapeutic level of Copper and keep it there. The Copper controls the parasites/ protozoan and keeps them from overwhelming the fish. It basically causes paralysis. They cannot seek out the fish in therapeutic levels of poison. The free swimmers will fall to the bottom of the tank. After the transfer, the parasites stay in the old tank, and the fish moves away from them into the new tank. Keeping the therapeutic level prevents any new attacks in the new sterile transfer tank. If there are parasites still burrowing into the tissue (Ich), they will eventually fall off and when you transfer the next time, they will be gone too.

If you’re dealing with Brooklynella or Uronema that’s a different story and they can be much more difficult to eradicate.

I find that tangs will typically have Ich or Velvet and in a lot of cases...both.