Ich or bacterial/viral tuffs? (Pics)

Pimba · Jan 1, 2023

So I went for an overseas trip about 10 days ago and before leaving both scopas and blue tang had white spots (looked raised). I did about 20% WC and also setup a UV before i left as UV worked for me last time.

Just got back today and see that scopas has no longer any spots but blue tang looks like it's whole body is covered now.

KING KONG · Jan 1, 2023

Pimba said:
So I went for an overseas trip about 10 days ago and before leaving both scopas and blue tang had white spots (looked raised). I did about 20% WC and also setup a UV before i left as UV worked for me last time.

Just got back today and see that scopas has no longer any spots but blue tang looks like it's whole body is covered now.

Looks like itch. You can refer this http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

Jay Hemdal · Jan 1, 2023

That seems to be mucus plugs/cones that blue tangs are very prone to getting. There is probably some ich mixed in there as well....one possible source of these mucus cones is external parasites like ich.

Do ANY other fish have ANY spots right now?

If not, you may want to wait a day or two to see how things develop (but have a treatment plan ready).

Here is what I've written up about the mucus issue:

Idiopathic mucus plugs/cones: Fish sometimes develop excess mucus that excretes from the producing skin cells and rather than spreading out along the body, rises up as a cone or a plug. These presumable develop from some sort of skin irritation. If you do a skin scrape on them, all you see is mucus. They do show up on dark colored fish more often, probably because the contrast makes them easier to see. The cause(s) for this is unknown. In some cases, they just go away, in other cases, the fish dies - but in those cases, it is probable that there was a secondary issue. There may be some correlation between copper sulfate use, or a reaction to a previous skin infection. There is also some strong correlation between this issue and the species of fish; surgeonfish, tetras and Anabantids are all known to develop this. Many people misdiagnose these mucus plugs as Cryptocaryon or Lymphocystis, but the plug or cone shape to the mucus is diagnostic to some degree.

Jay

Weeb · Jan 1, 2023

Pimba said:
So I went for an overseas trip about 10 days ago and before leaving both scopas and blue tang had white spots (looked raised). I did about 20% WC and also setup a UV before i left as UV worked for me last time.

Just got back today and see that scopas has no longer any spots but blue tang looks like it's whole body is covered now.

Please keep in mind that the UV really doesn't eradicate marine ich. It can only affect the ich in its free swimming stage and then only when they pass through the UV. Invariably not all will make it to the UV so the infestation continues in the DT.

Was someone taking care of the fish while you were overseas? I'd also like to know when the blue tang was added to the DT. And, as Jay requested -- any other fish with spots on them now? Any showing stress?

You have a nice group of fish -- at least all that can be seen in the photo. What are you feeding them and how often?

MnFish1 · Jan 1, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
That seems to be mucus plugs/cones that blue tangs are very prone to getting. There is probably some ich mixed in there as well....one possible source of these mucus cones is external parasites like ich.

Do ANY other fish have ANY spots right now?

If not, you may want to wait a day or two to see how things develop (but have a treatment plan ready).

Here is what I've written up about the mucus issue:

Idiopathic mucus plugs/cones: Fish sometimes develop excess mucus that excretes from the producing skin cells and rather than spreading out along the body, rises up as a cone or a plug. These presumable develop from some sort of skin irritation. If you do a skin scrape on them, all you see is mucus. They do show up on dark colored fish more often, probably because the contrast makes them easier to see. The cause(s) for this is unknown. In some cases, they just go away, in other cases, the fish dies - but in those cases, it is probable that there was a secondary issue. There may be some correlation between copper sulfate use, or a reaction to a previous skin infection. There is also some strong correlation between this issue and the species of fish; surgeonfish, tetras and Anabantids are all known to develop this. Many people misdiagnose these mucus plugs as Cryptocaryon or Lymphocystis, but the plug or cone shape to the mucus is diagnostic to some degree.

Jay

It also looks like the tail fin is somewhat ragged. ?Bullying (seems to large for Ich to me) - agree with @Jay Hemdal

Pimba · Jan 3, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Do ANY other fish have ANY spots right now?

Yes I can see small white spots on some (not all) of the other fish as well. They look more like ich ( ie not raised)? I have attached some pics.

They all still eating well except for blue tang who flashes sometimes.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 3, 2023

Pimba said:
Yes I can see small white spots on some (not all) of the other fish as well. They look more like ich ( ie not raised)? I have attached some pics.

They all still eating well except for blue tang who flashes sometimes.

The Singapore angel does look to have ich. The wrasse, same thing as with the tang - the spots look larger and more diffuse than I would expect, but probably a mix of ich and mucus.

This isn't a typical presentation - I usually see more clearly defined, smaller spots with ich (some of this may be a focus issue with the pictures?). However, I think you need to start a treatment as I had mentioned. I understand that your circumstances may not allow for it, but moving all of the fish and treating them with copper would be best. Alternatively, you could move out all of the inverts and run hypo in your DT. A third option would be to use chloroquine instead of copper, but that is a bit riskier - both to some fish, as well as not working as well as copper.

If you have no other alternative, you *could* continue to try and manage it in place. You could try siphoning off the sand late every night to remove some of the resting ich tomonts. You could also dose the tank with Polyp Lab Medic - that is a peroxide salt that at least has some potential to help (unlike those "tonics" on the market that really do nothing). People try regular peroxide dosing, but the jury is still out as to if that works or not. I'm not suggesting this as a primary course of action though.....

Jay

Pimba · Jan 3, 2023

I have tried Polyp Lab Medic in the past which haven't worked. The last time when I had an ich outbreak I tried normal H2O2 dosing with UV and it seemed manage ich untill this time before I added some new fish

I have started h2o2 dosing again with the same UV sterilizer I used last time. Around what time at night is best to sand vacuum to remove some or the ich tomonts as you mentioned?

I really hope all my fish survives..

Jay Hemdal · Jan 3, 2023

Pimba said:
I have tried Polyp Lab Medic in the past which haven't worked. The last time when I had an ich outbreak I tried normal H2O2 dosing with UV and it seemed manage ich untill this time before I added some new fish

I have started h2o2 dosing again with the same UV sterilizer I used last time. Around what time at night is best to sand vacuum to remove some or the ich tomonts as you mentioned?

I really hope all my fish survives..

Timing of the sand vacuuming is tough - but the tomonts release their theronts in the early AM, so I would say siphon in the late evening.
I agree that peroxides rarely cure fish of ich, I was only suggesting that as a poor second choice and as an adjunct to management.
Jay

Pimba · Jan 10, 2023

UPDATE.

There are still a few spots on Singapore angel and maybe on the blue tang as well but looks so much better now (you can check the before pics of blue tang in my first post with pics here)! All the others doing well as well. In terms of what I did, it was only running the UV (Jebao 36W) and dosing 15ml of 3% H2O2 3 times per day (tank size 350L).

From today onwards I would stop dosing H2O2 and would only run the UV and see what happens.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 10, 2023

Good Luck!

Jay

Pimba · Jan 10, 2023

Weeb said:
Was someone taking care of the fish while you were overseas? I'd also like to know when the blue tang was added to the DT. And, as Jay requested -- any other fish with spots on them now? Any showing stress?

You have a nice group of fish -- at least all that can be seen in the photo. What are you feeding them and how often?

Sorry i couldn't answer these earlier.

No, no one was taking care of fish; they were on a autofeeder with wifi plugs/cameras for topping off freshwater and viewing remotly. I do regular feedings of pellets 2 times a day (with autofeeder) and ad hoc feedings of nori, flakes, raw shrimp, frozen etc when I feel like.

Blue tang's been in the tank for about an year now. This happened only after adding some new fish recently. And thanks, yes i really like the group of fish i have now!

Weeb · Jan 10, 2023

Pimba said:
Sorry i couldn't answer these earlier.

No, no one was taking care of fish; they were on a autofeeder with wifi plugs/cameras for topping off freshwater and viewing remotly. I do regular feedings of pellets 2 times a day (with autofeeder) and ad hoc feedings of nori, flakes, raw shrimp, frozen etc when I feel like.

Blue tang's been in the tank for about an year now. This happened only after adding some new fish recently. And thanks, yes i really like the group of fish i have now!

I must say that a regular diet of pellets is not the best for the fish. Try some frozen and freeze-dried foods that contain actual ocean seafoods. Add some vitamins to their diet. Use one or all of these:
Hikari Mega-Marine Angel food (frozen)
Ocean nutrition angel formula
LRS Herbivore diet

It would be better, IMO to have someone monitor and feed your fishes with frozen or freeze dried foods (e.g., ocean plankton, krill) while you are away.