Ich persistent through copper power treatment.

[feresadas]

I am new to the hobby, and feel like I'm letting my fish down.

I first got these 2 clownfish in September of last year, and had them in my 15 gallon for a month, everything was looking good.

Then one of them developed some white spots and I crossed referenced with images of clowns with ich and decided it was that.

I purchased a 10 gal tank, HOB filter, air stone, and heater. Got myself some copper power and a salifert copper test kit.

Treated them for 3 weeks, the stopped treating with copper and let them stay in the tank till March to allow for a full fallow period.

When I went to put them back into the DT I noticed that the same one who originally had ich still had it.

I re-treated the tank with copper, and it started to go away after a few days. On week two he only had two tiny spots that looked like they were healing up. But now on week three of the re-treatment and it is flaring up again, and I'm kinda at a loss.

Only the one clown has ever had any spots, it also happens to be the clown who seems less dominant and eats less. This makes me think that because it's getting less food it's immune system is struggling to keep up and that's why the ich is persistent? But how is the ich living through the 2.0+ ppm of copper? I am fairly certain I have kept it above therapeutic levels the whole time, though it's hard to tell as the salifert test only goes to 2 ppm.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I just want to get them healthy, i feel bad that it has gone in this long, and I am failing them. They seemed so happy in the display tank, and not as much in the QT. There are PVC elbows for them to hide in.

 

[feresadas]

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

 

[MinnieMouse2]

Copper weakens the immune system of fish. Ich can start to get copper resistent. Studies have shown ich can come into a tank with live rock, crabs, snails, and even corals. I just do ich management see it run an in tank UV and feed foods with garlic and I also add in a little ginger. I am going to lose any sleep. The ocean is all about natural immunity. Survival of the fittest. They is not one out there giving the fish copper baths.

 

[MinnieMouse2]

You might want to look into this product, some people are saying this two hour dip using two five gallon buckets is the way to go.

 

[MinnieMouse2]

You might want to look into this product, some people are saying this two hour dip using two five gallon buckets is the way to go. If you got it in your tank, then this is only a bandaid. Work on the fishes immune system. Add in Selcon, vitamins, different kinds of feeds.

 

[Lavey29]

Pics of the sick fish would help

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am new to the hobby, and feel like I'm letting my fish down.

I first got these 2 clownfish in September of last year, and had them in my 15 gallon for a month, everything was looking good.

Then one of them developed some white spots and I crossed referenced with images of clowns with ich and decided it was that.

I purchased a 10 gal tank, HOB filter, air stone, and heater. Got myself some copper power and a salifert copper test kit.

Treated them for 3 weeks, the stopped treating with copper and let them stay in the tank till March to allow for a full fallow period.

When I went to put them back into the DT I noticed that the same one who originally had ich still had it.

I re-treated the tank with copper, and it started to go away after a few days. On week two he only had two tiny spots that looked like they were healing up. But now on week three of the re-treatment and it is flaring up again, and I'm kinda at a loss.

Only the one clown has ever had any spots, it also happens to be the clown who seems less dominant and eats less. This makes me think that because it's getting less food it's immune system is struggling to keep up and that's why the ich is persistent? But how is the ich living through the 2.0+ ppm of copper? I am fairly certain I have kept it above therapeutic levels the whole time, though it's hard to tell as the salifert test only goes to 2 ppm.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I just want to get them healthy, i feel bad that it has gone in this long, and I am failing them. They seemed so happy in the display tank, and not as much in the QT. There are PVC elbows for them to hide in.

Pics and even video under white lighting will help with assessment. Never heard of ginger use and Garlic will NOT cure ich - Avoid both.
In answer to your question. . Assuming its ich, Two things come into play.
2.0 is a level for more sensitive fish and needed to be a little higher and at lower level for 21 days was not enough. You can get away at 21 days at elevated temps but not recommended.
The treatment for ich assuming again it is ich is to treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display should be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

 

[feresadas]

Pics and even video under white lighting will help with assessment. Never heard of ginger use and Garlic will NOT cure ich - Avoid both.
In answer to your question. . Assuming its ich, Two things come into play.
2.0 is a level for more sensitive fish and needed to be a little higher and at lower level for 21 days was not enough. You can get away at 21 days at elevated temps but not recommended.
The treatment for ich assuming again it is ich is to treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display should be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

I will take pictures when I get home from lab today.

My issue is to my knowledge they have been through a 30 day copper treatment twice now. Unless my test kit (salifert) is faulty, I am fairly certain it has not dropped below therapeutic levels during either of these treatments.

 

[C4ctus99]

I have a seachem test kit and it only reads up to .8-1.0 roughly. The instructions say you can double it using copper free water, just multiply the results by two.

Since that was still not high enough, I ended up using 1 part water from QT and 3 parts copper free water. The adjustments lined up perfectly when multiplied by 4.

Maybe try this out with your test kit and a bucket of new salt water and see if it does a 1 for one increase in doses by diluting the test kit 1 part copper treated water and 1 part non copper water. At the very least you should be able to verify any levels above 2.0ppm
Edit: just make certain to multiply results by 2

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Copper weakens the immune system of fish. Ich can start to get copper resistent. Studies have shown ich can come into a tank with live rock, crabs, snails, and even corals. I just do ich management see it run an in tank UV and feed foods with garlic and I also add in a little ginger. I am going to lose any sleep. The ocean is all about natural immunity. Survival of the fittest. They is not one out there giving the fish copper baths.

Ich, Cryptocaryon, does not show resistance to properly used copper medications. I think in this case, we need to see pictures to ensure that it is indeed ich, and not mucus, or Lymphocystis.

Fish have relatively poor immune response to ich, especially in aquariums, where the propagule pressure of the parasite can pretty much overtake their meager immune response. the reason fish don't usually die from ich in the wild is because the huge water volume of the ocean really limits the parasite's ability to reproduce and attach back on the host, not like in an aquarium.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I am new to the hobby, and feel like I'm letting my fish down.

I first got these 2 clownfish in September of last year, and had them in my 15 gallon for a month, everything was looking good.

Then one of them developed some white spots and I crossed referenced with images of clowns with ich and decided it was that.

I purchased a 10 gal tank, HOB filter, air stone, and heater. Got myself some copper power and a salifert copper test kit.

Treated them for 3 weeks, the stopped treating with copper and let them stay in the tank till March to allow for a full fallow period.

When I went to put them back into the DT I noticed that the same one who originally had ich still had it.

I re-treated the tank with copper, and it started to go away after a few days. On week two he only had two tiny spots that looked like they were healing up. But now on week three of the re-treatment and it is flaring up again, and I'm kinda at a loss.

Only the one clown has ever had any spots, it also happens to be the clown who seems less dominant and eats less. This makes me think that because it's getting less food it's immune system is struggling to keep up and that's why the ich is persistent? But how is the ich living through the 2.0+ ppm of copper? I am fairly certain I have kept it above therapeutic levels the whole time, though it's hard to tell as the salifert test only goes to 2 ppm.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I just want to get them healthy, i feel bad that it has gone in this long, and I am failing them. They seemed so happy in the display tank, and not as much in the QT. There are PVC elbows for them to hide in.

+1 on seeing some clear photos of the fish (I know they are tough to get, but we need to rule out other issues that can cause spots).

Jay

 

[vtecintegra]

The ocean is all about natural immunity. Survival of the fittest. They is not one out there giving the fish copper baths.

And fish in the ocean aren't living in 15 gallons of water where the parasite population can explode and over run the fish.

 

[piranhaman00]

You need Hanna copper, other test kits do not have the resolution and the window is too narrow

 

[feresadas]

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Best pictures I could get, he pooed right as I started taking pictures of course so there is more stuff in the water than I would have hopped, but this should give you a good idea for what condition he is in.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Best pictures I could get, he pooed right as I started taking pictures of course so there is more stuff in the water than I would have hopped, but this should give you a good idea for what condition he is in.

That does seem to be a minor ich infection. It could get worse over the next few days, if so, you'll need to consider a copper or hyposalinity treatment in an isolation tank.

Jay

 

[feresadas]

That does seem to be a minor ich infection. It could get worse over the next few days, if so, you'll need to consider a copper or hyposalinity treatment in an isolation tank.

Jay

it is, and has been in a QT tank with one other clownfish being treated with copper for over three weeks.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

it is, and has been in a QT tank with one other clownfish being treated with copper for over three weeks.

Are you at a full copper dose? Cupramine at 0.50 ppm or coppersafe/copper power at 2.5 ppm? This often takes a full 30 days beyond the date of the last spots seen to be a full cure.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

it is, and has been in a QT tank with one other clownfish being treated with copper for over three weeks.

Agree on ich and how are you measuring copper levels?

 

[feresadas]

Are you at a full copper dose? Cupramine at 0.50 ppm or coppersafe/copper power at 2.5 ppm? This often takes a full 30 days beyond the date of the last spots seen to be a full cure.

Jay

Agree on ich and how are you measuring copper levels?

I believe it is a full dose, I am using salifert tests which only go to 2.0ppm, and it has been consistently darker than the 2.0 reference. I am on a budget, but clearly something isn't working so I'm tempted to cave and get a hanna checker.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I believe it is a full dose, I am using salifert tests which only go to 2.0ppm, and it has been consistently darker than the 2.0 reference. I am on a budget, but clearly something isn't working so I'm tempted to cave and get a hanna checker.

Unfortunately- fish are at risk not knowing actual value.
I know we dont have money to throw around but Hanna will accomplish this or even an LFS that uses hanna can test for you- You Need to know what level