Ich / quarantine question

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

So in order to keep the DT ich free they say that every fish/invert/coral/rock be quarantined.

So what if you buy fish, put him in qt for 60 days, he looks good so you add him to the dt.....now what if he has ich living unseen in his gills? Won't that infect the dt? It seems that the only way to make sure not to get ich is to treat every single new fish....

Another scenario.....you get a coral that carries ich into your qt. Now your qt might keep it alive for 76 days now any fish added to the qt during that time will not be 100% safe. Any coral/rock/invert added would start the 76 days again to be sure the qt does not harber ich.....so if on the 70th day of adding the first coral, you add another coral, you would have to wait an additional 76 days for both corals.

Am I making a mistake?

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

We learn from this 3 things.

1. Every single new fish must be treated for ich even if it shows no signs.

2. Unless you have multiple qt's, you can only make 1 livestock purchase every 76 days. That includes corals and rock....and everything has to he added to qt at the same time or the 76 days will restart for everyhing if somethingbis added during.

3. I can't imagine reefers actually do the above. It might make spouses happy but would put most of the sponsers out of business lol.

Jlobes · Dec 23, 2015

1, yes everything should in theory go into QT before entering your DT, and possibly be treated for ich, and other diseases/illness. depending on your methods, you could have that fish in the DT in less than 5 weeks or as long as 8.

2. multiple QT tanks is the obvious way to go, if you plan on making lots of purchases. Or also, just having a qt for coral/inverts and one for fish. Anything in the coral/invert QT would need to stay there and fishless for 76 days to ensure ich is not present. yes, adding more/new livestock would "restart the clock" so to speak

3. many reefers dont, and most get lucky. However QT is an integral part of keeping/maintaining a system, especially long term. I couldnt imagine having a DT with years of time and potentially thousands of dollars in livestock, and not putting new additions through QT. I dont see how sponsors would be out of business, they may get even more business as folks have the capacity to keep their collections alive and are inspired to purchase even more.

Im actually dealing with this at the moment, just reset up the 120DT, its cycled and ready, but i want to qt everything that enters the tank this time around. I have a proper fish QT and a nano with all that remains from the "old" 120, thinking of using the nano for inverts/corals and the fish qt for fish, obviously.

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

I don't think most reefers have this much patience and I haven't seen where it is recommend to treat every single fish.....my point is that I would guess the vast majority of reef tanks are not 100% ich free.

Another point is that if a reefer has 1 fish in the dt that gets ich, unless he/she is willing to do all the above, catching all the fish for treatment and going fallow can end up a major waste of time and energy.

Humblefish · Dec 23, 2015

shoelaceike said:
1. Every single new fish must be treated for ich even if it shows no signs.

Yes, this is what I do. Prophylactically treat for flukes too. Least invasive way to accomplish both is discussed here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

shoelaceike said:
2. Unless you have multiple qt's, you can only make 1 livestock purchase every 76 days. That includes corals and rock....and everything has to he added to qt at the same time or the 76 days will restart for everyhing if somethingbis added during.

You need two QTs - one for fish, one for corals/inverts. The coral/invert can double as a frag or grow out tank. The sticking point is it must be kept fishless at all times. The optimal thing to do is to QT all corals/inverts for 76 days; that gives you close to 100% eradication. I say "close" because I personally believe 100% is an unattainable goal. However for the impatient, even 30 days of isolation provides you with some layer of protection. The "72 day strain of ich" was encountered once, in a single study. The vast majority of strains of ich which have been studied have an average life cycle of between 2-4 weeks.

About having to restart the QT clock for corals/inverts: 72 days is the countdown for theronts (free swimmers) to be released from the tomonts (embedded on the coral/invert). After 72 days, the "parasite eggs" should all be gone. So, I guess 76 days is a bit of overkill when it comes to QT'ing corals/inverts so long as you follow the instructions below. If you introduce another coral/invert to the QT, it's always possible a free swimmer could be present in the water from that even past the 72 or 76 days. However, this threat can be neutralized by simply pouring some DT water over the coral/invert before placing in your tank. Theronts cannot "stick" like tomonts can, so they are easily "washed away" by clean, parasite free SW.

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

Humblefish said:
Yes, this is what I do. Prophylactically treat for flukes too. Least invasive way to accomplish both is discussed here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

You need two QTs - one for fish, one for corals/inverts. The coral/invert can double as a frag or grow out tank. The sticking point is it must be kept fishless at all times. The optimal thing to do is to QT all corals/inverts for 76 days; that gives you close to 100% eradication. I say "close" because I personally believe 100% is an unattainable goal. However for the impatient, even 30 days of isolation provides you with some layer of protection. The "72 day strain of ich" was encountered once, in a single study. The vast majority of strains of ich which have been studied have an average life cycle of between 2-4 weeks.

About having to restart the QT clock for corals/inverts: 72 days is the countdown for theronts (free swimmers) to be released from the tomonts (embedded on the coral/invert). After 72 days, the "parasite eggs" should all be gone. So, I guess 76 days is a bit of overkill when it comes to QT'ing corals/inverts so long as you follow the instructions below. If you introduce another coral/invert to the QT, it's always possible a free swimmer could be present in the water from that even past the 72 or 76 days. However, this threat can be neutralized by simply pouring some DT water over the coral/invert before placing in your tank. Theronts cannot "stick" like tomonts can, so they are easily "washed away" by clean, parasite free SW.

Thanks for the reply....I just wanted to be sure it's as difficult as I thought lol.....btw I read a study recently that marine ich stayed alive at least 90 days without a host.....

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

I personally have a qt and hospital tank.....I know I'm not going to make myself crazy with the above so I generally like to keep the fish in QT for a week or 2 to make sure they don't have anything really deadly..... I use the hospital tank on an idividual basis if a fish is really bad or stops eating....if the other fish look and eatbok, i leave them be......of course this is not the absolute best but I've had pretty good success with it....

Humblefish · Dec 23, 2015

shoelaceike said:
btw I read a study recently that marine ich stayed alive at least 90 days without a host.....

Source for this study?

The source of the "72 day rule" is a 1997 Colorni and Burgess study, where it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.

The full study can be found here: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018360323287

It is also discussed here: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

I will have to find it....should have saved it

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

Not sure if this is where I saw it....could be... http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=41

cb684 · Dec 23, 2015

What I do is to buy fish from liveaquaria.com/diversden and skip the quarantine. I am not saying this is the best way, but until I can do better then what they do, that is what I decided to do. I surely pay the price for that...

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

cb684 said:
What I do is to buy fish from liveaquaria.com/diversden and skip the quarantine. I am not saying this is the best way, but until I can do better then what they do, that is what I decided to do. I surely pay the price for that...

It's not bad as they say everything has been quarintined and eating.....however I still like to do a short qt to make sure they eat and I believe is less stressful after being shipped then being thrown in a tank with a bunch of strangers....

omykiss001 · Dec 23, 2015

Well just so you know I'm going through what you just described. Ich came in on a coral I purchased. I thought the same thing you did. Risk is low from coral and inverts. Well got burned and lost my yellow tang, I think I might have saved my Powder brown tang, but he's still in copper, but at least started eating again today. Depending on how big your tank is, mine is about 180 gallons, luckily I was just stocking it up so only had 8 fish, but it took about 3 days to catch them all and now had to shell out about another $300 getting a temporary homes and enough equipment to treat them all and keeping my main DT fallow for the next 76 days as I don't plan to go through this again. A lot of stress for the fish, myself, daughter and wife who have become fond of our finny friends.

At least I'll be using that 40 breeder as my new coral/ frag QT tank. I was in your shoes until it happened to me. Luckily I only lost a single fish.

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

omykiss001 said:
Well just so you know I'm going through what you just described. Ich came in on a coral I purchased. I thought the same thing you did. Risk is low from coral and inverts. Well got burned and lost my yellow tang, I think I might have saved my Powder brown tang, but he's still in copper, but at least started eating again today. Depending on how big your tank is, mine is about 180 gallons, luckily I was just stocking it up so only had 8 fish, but it took about 3 days to catch them all and now had to shell out about another $300 getting a temporary homes and enough equipment to treat them all and keeping my main DT fallow for the next 76 days as I don't plan to go through this again. A lot of stress for the fish, myself, daughter and wife who have become fond of our finny friends.

At least I'll be using that 40 breeder as my new coral/ frag QT tank. I was in your shoes until it happened to me. Luckily I only lost a single fish.

Don't get me wrong. The more careful you are not to introduce diseases the better....

Triggreef · Dec 23, 2015

shoelaceike said:
So in order to keep the DT ich free they say that every fish/invert/coral/rock be quarantined.

So what if you buy fish, put him in qt for 60 days, he looks good so you add him to the dt.....now what if he has ich living unseen in his gills? Won't that infect the dt? It seems that the only way to make sure not to get ich is to treat every single new fish....

Another scenario.....you get a coral that carries ich into your qt. Now your qt might keep it alive for 76 days now any fish added to the qt during that time will not be 100% safe. Any coral/rock/invert added would start the 76 days again to be sure the qt does not harber ich.....so if on the 70th day of adding the first coral, you add another coral, you would have to wait an additional 76 days for both corals.

Am I making a mistake?

Without taking the time to read the other posts here... To your first statement, you have to decide how far your willing to go and which risks your willing to take. But to be 100% no mistake ich free then yes that is true. That said I do not QT anywhere close to that and have had very good luck.

Second statement also true.

Third paragraph there, you missed a point. It would be 76 days from the time the last fish is present. Not neccessarily the last coral or invert. The only stage that ich can be transported by inverts/rocks/corals, is in the cyst form where it is attached to these items. So once those cysts (or eggs) hatch out, the parasites have to find a host within 24 to 48 hours or they die. So if they are in a QT with no fish, then they will die right after hatching. Meaning that the new coral you add, won't be able to transport parasites to your older coral that has been in there for 6 weeks already...

Lionfish Lair · Dec 23, 2015

shoelaceike said:
Not sure if this is where I saw it....could be... http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=41

Don't look to that article as a source of accurate information. I mean no offense to anyone but the first paragraph my eyes landed on had a hellavah incorrect statement....

"Finally, although many sources from the past recommended raising the aquarium temperature to 85°F or so, we do not. Even though this may work for freshwater Ich by preventing the uptake of oxygen through the cell membrane, it serves to stress the saltwater Ich to the point the parasite will encyst and go dormant."

Ich doesn't work that way.....

shoelaceike · Dec 23, 2015

I'm no expert lol....

Lionfish Lair · Dec 23, 2015

It can be hard wading though the information. A lot of the research articles aren't available to hobbyists, so we have to trust another's word. Just take that one off of your preferred reading list.