Ich that isn't ich!?!

[immafishguy]

You're using Coppersafe with an API, correct?

We're trying to figure out if there's any correlation between what you're seeing and this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-despite-my-efforts.306580/

Yup, coppersafe and API.
Other water parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate:0-25(depending on when I do water changes)
Salinity: 1.022-1.023
Copper: 3ppm

Btw just as a reference for how much is haveing to dose right now, I'm using the 16oz bottle of copper safe (treats 375 gallons) and it only lasts me 3 100% water changes...(system water volume is only $70 gallons...)
...just to get an idea of how much I'm over dosing..

 

[immafishguy]

I just redid the API test, and it has gone up substantially since last night when I did the water change... let me know what you guys think the level is... borderline toxic no?

 

[azbigjohn]

I just redid the API test, and it has gone up substantially since last night when I did the water change... let me know what you guys think the level is... borderline toxic no?

No where near the expertise of the folks here already, but I know with the API kit, if I raised the vial off the card, under bright light, the color lightened substantially.

I still think you are therapeutic, but not over 4.0

 

[immafishguy]

No where near the expertise of the folks here already, but I know with the API kit, if I raised the vial off the card, under bright light, the color lightened substantially.

I still think you are therapeutic, but not over 4.0

Well the directions dictate to look through the top of the vial down through the liquid against the white background, but the color is to dark to even compare lol... that's why I gave the side pic for reference... looks to be about 2ppm from the side... but I could be wrong...

 

[azbigjohn]

Well the directions dictate to look through the top of the vial down through the liquid against the white background, but the color is to dark to even compare lol... that's why I gave the side pic for reference... looks to be about 2ppm from the side... but I could be wrong...

I looked and found the discussion thread where a few of us were discussing the color issue, with pictures of the differences. Not to derail the thread at all, just sharing my API test kit experience... https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/coppersafe-dosage-incorrect-on-bottle.282726/page-7#post-3471849

You have done a remarkable job of treating and documenting this, with some fish that I only dream of having some day...

 

[melypr1985]

I wonder how much it would help to do a formalin dip on these tangs.... in hopes of killing and washing off any surface parasites. Of course the freshwater dip should have handled that as well, assuming it was a full 5 minute dip, but it might be worth a shot here to do the formalin.

 

[immafishguy]

Think it's too traumatic to try to do a formalin dosed FW dip? At this point I'm kinda willing to try anything

 

[melypr1985]

Think it's too traumatic to try to do a formalin dosed FW dip? At this point I'm kinda willing to try anything

I wouldn't do it in freshwater... just saltwater. An hour dip highly aerated.

 

[cmcoker]

So maybe way off base, but is it possible this is bacterial? I dealt (am dealing but looking good) with fin rot after 30 days of copper. These spots showed up on the fish as well and kinda remind me of what you are seeing, just not as numerous. One medicated antibiotic bath later the dorsal spot was gone, the fin spot was gone in a couple days, with a 5 hour bath each day. I am using enrofloxacin, so not sure what you could try. Maybe acriflavine instead of the formalin? What do you think @Humblefish?

I'm no expert, just thinking out loud, haha

 

[4FordFamily]

Actually that looks about 2.0-2.5 max to me. I agree I read through the vial rather than follow the instructions with API kits. I wouldn't say you're in a dangerous level, yet.

Regarding the heavy dosing, any rock or sand in the tank?

 

[Humblefish]

So maybe way off base, but is it possible this is bacterial?

It's certainly possible. The OP could start dosing Kanaplex every 48 hrs to see if it has any effect.

 

[immafishguy]

Actually that looks about 2.0-2.5 max to me. I agree I read through the vial rather than follow the instructions with API kits. I wouldn't say you're in a dangerous level, yet.

Regarding the heavy dosing, any rock or sand in the tank?

There's about 5-10lbs of rubble in the sump super small pieces, not sure how much it could absorb, but it's been in there for about 8 months with copper. Think that's my problem? The rest of the filtration is you're normal plastic bioballs and a big skimmer

 

[4FordFamily]

There's about 5-10lbs of rubble in the sump super small pieces, not sure how much it could absorb, but it's been in there for about 8 months with copper. Think that's my problem? The rest of the filtration is you're normal plastic bioballs and a big skimmer

The small amount of rock in my 55 gal qt absorbs an exorbitant amount of copper. It was astounding.

 

[immafishguy]

The small amount of rock in my 55 gal qt absorbs an exorbitant amount of copper. It was astounding.

Huh... I'll pull it all out and see then.. Out of curiosity, at what point does the rock get over saturated with copper and copper no longer binds to it?

 

[JamesP]

Huh... I'll pull it all out and see then.. Out of curiosity, at what point does the rock get over saturated with copper and copper no longer binds to it?

When i ran cupramine in my dt, after a week or two the copper stopped dropping dramatically but i had to add small amounts for the entire 6 weeks i was running it. So i would say, at least 6 weeks but probably more. It would theoretically absorb until the rocks equalized with the water through the entire volume of the rock. I imagine the core of the rocks would be slower to equalize vs the surface of the rocks which was probably my first couple weeks.

 

[immafishguy]

When i ran cupramine in my dt, after a week or two the copper stopped dropping dramatically but i had to add small amounts for the entire 6 weeks i was running it. So i would say, at least 6 weeks but probably more. It would theoretically absorb until the rocks equalized with the water through the entire volume of the rock. I imagine the core of the rocks would be slower to equalize vs the surface of the rocks which was probably my first couple weeks.

Apparently with coppersafe 8months still isn't long enough [emoji23][emoji23]

 

[4FordFamily]

Huh... I'll pull it all out and see then.. Out of curiosity, at what point does the rock get over saturated with copper and copper no longer binds to it?

Depends on a lot of factors - it took weeks of dosing to reach this point when I did dosed my DT as a last resort -- it would be fine immediately after dosing and then I would test the next morning and sometimes it would be untraceable at all! Eventually it was saturated and stable each day with no additional dosing. It would still slowly lower for a week after the mass absorption was completed, so minor dosing daily was conducted.

 

[melypr1985]

I just want to add to the conversation on absorption. At the store, we have a 900 gallon fish only system that we keep copper in. Before I started working there and managed to change the way things are done, there was live rock and sand in this system. The live rock and sand had been in this system for years! I would test the copper daily and we still had absorption! I had to adjust the copper up every couple days and when I say "adjust" I was adding anywhere from 1/4 cup to 1 full cup of copper to the system to keep it right! That's a lot! Now, I only have a small amount of sand in a few of the lower tanks and NO live rock. The sand is for wrasses and other fish that need it to be comfortable. We use ugly PVC elbows instead of rock now. It isn't pretty, but it works. I never have to add copper to this system except during water changes.

 

[immafishguy]

Hows it going everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update. All of the spots seem to have disappeared from all of the fish after I removed the rock. Just wanted to thank you all for your assistance. I've never had a problem like this. For years, I've been quarantining with coppersafe, Salifert test kits, and a little bit of live rock and never encountered anything like it. Just glad that they are finally clean. Any recommendations for how long I should wait to throw them back in now that all the spots on all the fish are gone? In the past, I've only done so for 14 days(14 days of no appearance), but considering the circumstances that I've recently had, I'm thinking to get some new advise. Also, a couple fish are getting lateral line, so trying to speed things along. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

 

[melypr1985]

Hows it going everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update. All of the spots seem to have disappeared from all of the fish after I removed the rock. Just wanted to thank you all for your assistance. I've never had a problem like this. For years, I've been quarantining with coppersafe, Salifert test kits, and a little bit of live rock and never encountered anything like it. Just glad that they are finally clean. Any recommendations for how long I should wait to throw them back in now that all the spots on all the fish are gone? In the past, I've only done so for 14 days(14 days of no appearance), but considering the circumstances that I've recently had, I'm thinking to get some new advise. Also, a couple fish are getting lateral line, so trying to speed things along. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

Ideally you would keep them in therapeutic levels of copper for a full 30 days followed by a two week observation period without copper in the water. Now, you can short-cut this but it doesn't leave you any room for mistakes. 10 days in full therapeutic copper, then the fish are moved to a new sterile QT that has been set up at least 10 feet away. They stay there for a minimum of two weeks for observation.