Ich Visibility?

[Aaron-A2]

Can certain fish host the ich parasite without it being noticeable (Due to natural resistance/slime coat/etc)?

I ask from a QT perspective. I'm trying to determine if it's possible to have a fish in a non-medicated QT for 30 days and for that fish to display no signs of ich (while still having ich).

 

[HotRocks]

What kind of fish are we talking about?

 

[Brew12]

Can certain fish host the ich parasite without it being noticeable (Due to natural resistance/slime coat/etc)?

I ask from a QT perspective. I'm trying to determine if it's possible to have a fish in a non-medicated QT for 30 days and for that fish to display no signs of ich (while still having ich).

Yes, it is very common.

When a fish has crypto, you aren't seeing the parasite. You are seeing the mucus response of the fish to the parasite. If the fish has a strong immunity then the parasite will not trigger a strong enough response to create a visible symptom.

 

[ihavecrabs]

Fish, like wrasse or dragonets, with a thick slime coat can often be carriers of ich and velvet without showing significant external symptoms. Often they carry them in their gills. You may see signs of yawning or flashing though.

If you are very detail oriented, you can certainly QT this way. Another way to "certify" if you will, is to add a fresh water black molly to the tank you think is free and clear of ich and velvet and give it two weeks. With zero natural resistance, that'll be a good indicator, plus a they'll be easy to see on a black fish.

 

[Aaron-A2]

What kind of fish are we talking about?

I was more talking in general, but in my case my soon-to-be-Wrasses.

 

[EmdeReef]

It’s possible for fish to be asymptomatic carriers, although somewhat rare for ich. However, some studies indicate that anthias may be common asymptomatic carriers of uronema. More commonly a fish may display symptoms that are difficult to see.

Fish with thicker slime coat tend to be more resistant, scientists have isolated proteins in certain rabbit fish that make them immune to ich (unfortunately none that we’d keep in a tank were studied).

In some, depending on the fish you may want to treat prophylactically. I just learned that the hard way with a PBT

 

[Gareth elliott]

Almost all pathogens* that effect any population will have a mortality rate below 100%. This percent that survive will most definitely have a communicable state; whose timeframe will be dependent on the vector.

* rabies, rabies is evil and has a 100% mortality rate once symptomatic.

 

[Aaron-A2]

Fish, like wrasse or dragonets, with a thick slime coat can often be carriers of ich and velvet without showing significant external symptoms. Often they carry them in their gills. You may see signs of yawning or flashing though.

If you are very detail oriented, you can certainly QT this way. Another way to "certify" if you will, is to add a fresh water black molly to the tank you think is free and clear of ich and velvet and give it two weeks. With zero natural resistance, that'll be a good indicator, plus a they'll be easy to see on a black fish.

When you are talking about "flashing", are you referring to when fish look like they're scraping against rock/glass/sand? I'm not clear on the terminology, sorry!

 

[HotRocks]

I was more talking in general, but in my case my soon-to-be-Wrasses.

With Wrasses, I personally would not take a chance. They would be on the top of the list as far as being able to carry the parasites without visible symptoms due to the thick mucus coat they have.

 

[Aaron-A2]

With Wrasses, I personally would not take a chance. They would be on the top of the list as far as being able to carry the parasites without visible symptoms due to the thick mucus coat they have.

Understood! I've always taken a prophylactic approach to treating fish in QT, but after a recent issue with copper I took a slight step back on that. Going to still take preventative measures moving forward.

 

[ihavecrabs]

When you are talking about "flashing", are you referring to when fish look like they're scraping against rock/glass/sand? I'm not clear on the terminology, sorry!

Correct

 

[HotRocks]

Understood! I've always taken a prophylactic approach to treating fish in QT, but after a recent issue with copper I took a slight step back on that. Going to still take preventative measures moving forward.

I understand the issues with copper. I've been there myself. I don't know what type of copper/test kit you were using. But you may find this interesting/helpful.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/coppe...truments-high-range-copper-checker-hi702.454/


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Since I switched to copper power/Hanna checker. I have zero issues with copper. Now bacterial infections are another story...

 

[Aaron-A2]

I understand the issues with copper. I've been there myself. I don't know what type of copper/test kit you were using. But you may find this interesting/helpful.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/coppe...truments-high-range-copper-checker-hi702.454/


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Since I switched to copper power/Hanna checker. I have zero issues with copper. Now bacterial infections are another story...

I have both ionic (cupramine) and chelated (copper safe) at home using the hannah checker to provide readings. The issue I ran into was this:

I brought copper up slowly for 2 genicanthus angels (6 days) to 1.80. A few days went by and I noticed one angel on it's side. I tested copper again (I have an ammonia badge) and it read 2.22. I believe that my initial test of 1.8 was in error causing this issue as there was no significant evaporation. Going forward, i'm going to make sure to clean each test vial in rodi before testing (and probably test twice).

 

[HotRocks]

I have both ionic (cupramine) and chelated (copper safe) at home using the hannah checker to provide readings. The issue I ran into was this:

I brought copper up slowly for 2 genicanthus angels (6 days) to 1.80. A few days went by and I noticed one angel on it's side. I tested copper again (I have an ammonia badge) and it read 2.22. I believe that my initial test of 1.8 was in error causing this issue as there was no significant evaporation.

While that is a bit higher than I would recommend, it still shouldn't have been toxic. Now angels are very succeptable to bacterial infection. So the copper reducing the immune system is problematic. What ended up happening? Did you lower Cu level and the fish perked up?

 

[Aaron-A2]

While that is a bit higher than I would recommend, it still shouldn't have been toxic. Now angels are very succeptable to bacterial infection. So the copper reducing the immune system is problematic. What ended up happening? Did you lower Cu level and the fish perked up?

I noticed this issue while getting ready for work. I had un-treated (heated) saltwater available so I did a 5g water change on my 20g QT. It brought the levels back down to 1.86. I had to go to work, so nothing I could do more at that point.

When I got home, the angel who was on its side had passed. The other angel wasn't eating. I continued monitoring and doing another minor WC to bring copper levels below therapeutic to reduce stress. After another few days that angel passed away as well.

If you're suggesting that copper was not the cause of this problem, I'd be curious to know what you think it was. As some background information, I noticed Ich on the angels after completing my first round of Prazi, so I stopped prazi to begin treating for ich. The prazi treatment was prophylactic, and after inspecting the angel after death I noticed nothing out of the norm around the eyes/body.

 

[HotRocks]

While Copper may have been the issue, it's hard to he 100% sure. Some fish will just not tolerate copper. Although it's more likely something else was going on and the copper reduced the immune system enough to allow whatever the ailment may have been to take over. I personally, along with others such as @Humblefish @4FordFamily have experienced bouts of gram negative bacterial infections without any visible signs of infection until the fish was opened up upon death. I lost 6 fish in a 24 hour period, only one of which showed outward symptoms. I was around 14 days into therapeutic copper. I had to dose furan 2 and Kanaplex with copper to save the remaining fish.

 

[Humblefish]

While Copper may have been the issue, it's hard to he 100% sure. Some fish will just not tolerate copper. Although it's more likely something else was going on and the copper reduced the immune system enough to allow whatever the ailment may have been to take over. I personally, along with others such as @Humblefish @4FordFamily have experienced bouts of gram negative bacterial infections without any visible signs of infection until the fish was opened up upon death. I lost 6 fish in a 24 hour period, only one of which showed outward symptoms. I was around 14 days into therapeutic copper. I had to dose furan 2 and Kanaplex with copper to save the remaining fish.

^^ This; IMO How to treat velvet has been figured out: 5 min FW dip + 90 min Rally bath + into a QT with copper or Chloroquine

Provided the fish isn't already too far gone, that 1-2-3 protocol gives you a decent chance of saving a fish with velvet.

Now, gram-negative bacterial infections are another story. Figuring that out is the next challenge.

 

[4FordFamily]

While Copper may have been the issue, it's hard to he 100% sure. Some fish will just not tolerate copper. Although it's more likely something else was going on and the copper reduced the immune system enough to allow whatever the ailment may have been to take over. I personally, along with others such as @Humblefish @4FordFamily have experienced bouts of gram negative bacterial infections without any visible signs of infection until the fish was opened up upon death. I lost 6 fish in a 24 hour period, only one of which showed outward symptoms. I was around 14 days into therapeutic copper. I had to dose furan 2 and Kanaplex with copper to save the remaining fish.

This man isn’t exaggerating infections are rampant, far more dangerous and than velvet with regards to timeline and capability. This is a newer development over the past 3-6 months seeming to continue to worsen. What we don’t know is if this is an issue everywhere or just some of the larger retailers/distributors out there right now we have dealt with which remain unnamed as of now.

I am not going to mention any names until I am more certain that it’s it not isolated incidents (isolated to 3 of us on 12-15 orders).

Anyway, it’s not great out there it seems. Many of these fish are already zombies with these infections upon arrival and infecting their tankmates over the course of a week or two following.

 

[Aaron-A2]

While Copper may have been the issue, it's hard to he 100% sure. Some fish will just not tolerate copper. Although it's more likely something else was going on and the copper reduced the immune system enough to allow whatever the ailment may have been to take over. I personally, along with others such as @Humblefish @4FordFamily have experienced bouts of gram negative bacterial infections without any visible signs of infection until the fish was opened up upon death. I lost 6 fish in a 24 hour period, only one of which showed outward symptoms. I was around 14 days into therapeutic copper. I had to dose furan 2 and Kanaplex with copper to save the remaining fish.

At what point did you identify you needed to begin dosing furan 2 / kanaplex? Sorry to hear about your losses..

 

[HotRocks]

At what point did you identify you needed to begin dosing furan 2 / kanaplex? Sorry to hear about your losses..

At the point that the regal angel I had in QT at the time died, and had a nasty infection visible. It showed up very fast. Not there one day. Fish gone the next.