Ich vs copper and tank transfer question

[Saltwada]

Hi everyone,

Would def appreciate if you can shed some light on me regarding this topic. So if we are doing tank transfer, i know that we do this to outrun the ich lifecycle.. So if the point is that the ich falls off the fish forming a cyst. then we transfer to another tank so it has no time to hatch free swimming stages onto the fish, how come copper cant be shorter if it kills free swimming stages. so it says 7-9 days for ich to fall off of the fish. if its in copper wont it kill this stage on the fish within 48 hours? how long does it take for copper to kill ich? if the ich gets killed by copper sooner than 2 weeks, why do we need to do two weeks? cant we treat it the same as outruning the lifecycle of ich in tank transfer?? hope some of you can help me understand why it need 2 weeks in copper

 

[Saltwada]

whats the point of posting and being on reef to reef if no one responds.... i was also curious for if we wait for ich to fall off of the fish why dont we just wait till the dots fall tehn transfer vs waiting every 72 hours

 

[Bender]

@Saltwada

To my understanding there is two different methods for treating for ich - Copper & Tank Transfer Method (TTM).

There is also hybrid versions of combining them (Two weeks Copper then TTM for an example).

If you are using TTM you do not need copper at all. If you are doing copper for I believe 30 days then you would not need to do TTM.

 

[nereefpat]

Hi everyone,

so it says 7-9 days for ich to fall off of the fish. if its in copper wont it kill this stage on the fish within 48 hours? how long does it take for copper to kill ich? if the ich gets killed by copper sooner than 2 weeks, why do we need to do two weeks? cant we treat it the same as outruning the lifecycle of ich in tank transfer?? hope some of you can help me understand why it need 2 weeks in copper

7-9 days at most to fall off the fish: Yes, to my understanding that is correct. Copper treatment for 9 days is probably sufficient. I have asked a similar question before and didn't get a good response. 14 days is probably a conservative recommendation just to make sure the fish is covered.

Copper killing ich on the fish (if that's what you're asking): Copper won't to my knowledge affect the ich when it's attached to the fish, thus you are waiting for it to fall off the fish. The copper in the water keeps ich from reattaching.

Copper for 2 weeks (even a little less than 2 weeks) should be sufficient. But, that is only the case if you are removing the fish from QT and putting it in a 'sterile' tank that is 100% ich free. You can't, for example, just stop copper after two weeks and leave the fish in the same tank, since ich could then attach to the fish.

Does that help?

 

[Saltwada]

7-9 days at most to fall off the fish: Yes, to my understanding that is correct. Copper treatment for 9 days is probably sufficient. I have asked a similar question before and didn't get a good response. 14 days is probably a conservative recommendation just to make sure the fish is covered.

Copper killing ich on the fish (if that's what you're asking): Copper won't to my knowledge affect the ich when it's attached to the fish, thus you are waiting for it to fall off the fish. The copper in the water keeps ich from reattaching.

Copper for 2 weeks (even a little less than 2 weeks) should be sufficient. But, that is only the case if you are removing the fish from QT and putting it in a 'sterile' tank that is 100% ich free. You can't, for example, just stop copper after two weeks and leave the fish in the same tank, since ich could then attach to the fish.

Does that help?

thanks this def helps for the copper. how do you personally keep the ammonia from rising? I feel lke it gets expensive adding bacteria. for tank transfer if we are waiting for the ich to fall off fish why do we need to wait 72 hours cant we wait till it falls off for good

 

[nereefpat]

thanks this def helps for the copper. how do you personally keep the ammonia from rising? I feel lke it gets expensive adding bacteria. for tank transfer if we are waiting for the ich to fall off fish why do we need to wait 72 hours cant we wait till it falls off for good

Ammonia in QT w/ copper: you can either use a cycled QT tank, or use water changes to keep ammonia in check. You can NOT use Prime or similar because it makes the copper toxic. I use water changes. I've done both TTM and copper, and I haven't really decided which I like best yet. Ammonia in TTM isn't much of an issue, since it shouldn't be 'that' high after 72 hours.

TTM timing: it's a little tougher to wrap your head around how this works. It is recommended to keep doing transfers until about day 12. You can do them more frequently than every 72 hours. But, if more than 72 hours passes, the ich has a chance to fall off, encyst, and then reinfect the fish. And all the ich cells don't necessarily all fall off at the same time. TTM works really well for ich, but it doesn't work on other diseases, and you really need to follow all the timeline recommendations.

 

[Saltwada]

Ammonia in QT w/ copper: you can either use a cycled QT tank, or use water changes to keep ammonia in check. You can NOT use Prime or similar because it makes the copper toxic. I use water changes. I've done both TTM and copper, and I haven't really decided which I like best yet. Ammonia in TTM isn't much of an issue, since it shouldn't be 'that' high after 72 hours.

TTM timing: it's a little tougher to wrap your head around how this works. It is recommended to keep doing transfers until about day 12. You can do them more frequently than every 72 hours. But, if more than 72 hours passes, the ich has a chance to fall off, encyst, and then reinfect the fish. And all the ich cells don't necessarily all fall off at the same time. TTM works really well for ich, but it doesn't work on other diseases, and you really need to follow all the timeline recommendations.

i followed the timeline recomendation for ttm, but i still see two dots on one of the fish. i get confsued. i used a collandar so if we transfer the fish out of the tank and little water gets in the tank, cant that stil be enough to reinfect the tank with free swimming stages? since ich can be transered with anthing wet?

 

[Saltwada]

Ammonia in QT w/ copper: you can either use a cycled QT tank, or use water changes to keep ammonia in check. You can NOT use Prime or similar because it makes the copper toxic. I use water changes. I've done both TTM and copper, and I haven't really decided which I like best yet. Ammonia in TTM isn't much of an issue, since it shouldn't be 'that' high after 72 hours.

TTM timing: it's a little tougher to wrap your head around how this works. It is recommended to keep doing transfers until about day 12. You can do them more frequently than every 72 hours. But, if more than 72 hours passes, the ich has a chance to fall off, encyst, and then reinfect the fish. And all the ich cells don't necessarily all fall off at the same time. TTM works really well for ich, but it doesn't work on other diseases, and you really need to follow all the timeline recommendations.

also how do you use a qt tank thats cycled? there is no bio balls or anything for it to attach to?

 

[nereefpat]

also how do you use a qt tank thats cycled? there is no bio balls or anything for it to attach to?

An air pump driven sponge filter works. A hang on tank dump filter stuffed with filter floss (no carbon) would work too. You do have to keep bioload low and monitor ammonia.

 

[nereefpat]

i followed the timeline recomendation for ttm, but i still see two dots on one of the fish. i get confsued. i used a collandar so if we transfer the fish out of the tank and little water gets in the tank, cant that stil be enough to reinfect the tank with free swimming stages? since ich can be transered with anthing wet?

Are you sure the spots are ich, and not lympho or something else?

It's possible, but very unlikely. That is probably why the TTM Standard Operating Procedure is to go 12 days instead of 3-7 or so, allowing for a couple extra transfers. You do have to use sterile tanks each time, and ideally the tanks are far enough apart to not get any aerosol between the two.

 

[Saltwada]

Are you sure the spots are ich, and not lympho or something else?

It's possible, but very unlikely. That is probably why the TTM Standard Operating Procedure is to go 12 days instead of 3-7 or so, allowing for a couple extra transfers. You do have to use sterile tanks each time, and ideally the tanks are far enough apart to not get any aerosol between the two.

well the dots havenet moved and I did 2 transfers. it can possible be lympho. how would I know forsure? all the other fish look ok

 

[MERKEY]

well the dots havenet moved and I did 2 transfers. it can possible be lympho. how would I know forsure? all the other fish look ok

Do you have any pics?

 

[nereefpat]

Yes, pics could help.

2 transfers should equal about 6 days. If the same spots are there in the same place after 7 total days, I would bet it isn't ich.

 

[Saltwada]

Yes, pics could help.

2 transfers should equal about 6 days. If the same spots are there in the same place after 7 total days, I would bet it isn't ich.

okay thank you so much for that feedback ill maybe examine it for a little longer since I just did a final tank transfer. I would figure other fish would have ich if anything over the others. ill try to capture a cpic really thankful for you

 

[rirun]

Not sure if you’ve seen this thread but I’ll be trying it out on my next batch.

Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

10/9/2022: Jay Hemdal and the current Fish Medic staff are suggesting that people find other treatments rather than TTM. It has some substantial drawbacks: “Tank chasing” method (Tank Transfer Method - TTM) A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[nereefpat]

Keep up the transfers until you have passed the 12 day mark. This should take, at minimum, 4 transfers.

After 12 days, you should be ich free. And if it's just 2 spots, in the same place on only one fish, then it's probably not ich.

 

[Saltwada]

Keep up the transfers until you have passed the 12 day mark. This should take, at minimum, 4 transfers.

After 12 days, you should be ich free. And if it's just 2 spots, in the same place on only one fish, then it's probably not ich.

thanks so much for your feedback im trying out some prazi on the fish for 24 hours before going into the main tank

 

[Saltwada]

thanks so much for your feedback im trying out some prazi on the fish for 24 hours before going into the main tank

I do sstill see the same white spot it doesn't look like its on the fish sometimes it looks like its white under its skin