Ich with no symptoms?

[Breadbox]

I'm completely at a loss here, my gramma has no white spot or any visible symptoms(other than fading colours), yet is becoming increasing lethargic, hiding in holes during day time, only comes out to scratch and stopped eating today.

I suspected flukes so I bombarded the DT with prazi but things hasn't improved at all after 2 dosings 3 days apart.
I'm wondering if it is possible for a fish to die of Ich despite the lack of any white spots.

My other fish seems completely fine other than the very occasional scratching. Sorry for the lack of close ups, but there isn't any physical symptoms that I can see.
@Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I'm completely at a loss here, my gramma has no white spot or any visible symptoms(other than fading colours), yet is becoming increasing lethargic, hiding in holes during day time, only comes out to scratch and stopped eating today.

I suspected flukes so I bombarded the DT with prazi but things hasn't improved at all after 2 dosings 3 days apart.
I'm wondering if it is possible for a fish to die of Ich despite the lack of any white spots.

My other fish seems completely fine other than the very occasional scratching. Sorry for the lack of close ups, but there isn't any physical symptoms that I can see.
@Jay Hemdal

I think fish can have ich without showing any/many classic white spots, but those are cases where it is just starting and the fish typically has no other symptoms.
Velvet can cause severe disease without showing spots but you will see really rapid breathing.
There are some rare issues that really aren’t treatable, like microsporidians, so that leaves flukes as the likely culprit. Prazi doesn’t always work. Which prazi did you use? Are you sure you got the dose right? Did you see any relief at all, even temporary, after the prazi?
Jay

 

[Breadbox]

I think fish can have ich without showing any/many classic white spots, but those are cases where it is just starting and the fish typically has no other symptoms.
Velvet can cause severe disease without showing spots but you will see really rapid breathing.
There are some rare issues that really aren’t treatable, like microsporidians, so that leaves flukes as the likely culprit. Prazi doesn’t always work. Which prazi did you use? Are you sure you got the dose right? Did you see any relief at all, even temporary, after the prazi?
Jay

I think velvet can be ruled out since the gramma isn't breathing quickly and isn't dead yet after several weeks.

I don't have access to Prazi Pro so I have to use some off brand Prazi meds called Eiho Prazi Gold, it doesn't have any concentration label so I just dosed according to instructions.
I think there is less scratching on the first day on the first dose, on my second dose(dosed more this time), there isn't any relief at all.

Is it possible that the gramma, being a Caribbean fish, isn't resistant to diseases/parasite that Indo Pacific fishes are natural carriers of?

I'm planning on getting on my fish out into quarantine and fallowing the DT for 2 months, so I'm wondering there's any meds that I should dose for unidentifiable illness/super prazi resistant flukes/secondary bacterial infection?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Yes, you can rule out velvet.

I don’t know anything about your prazi product, but the typical dose is 2.2 mg/l.

Truly prazi resistant flukes aren’t really a thing. The problems with prazi stem from it not killing flukes eggs (not all flukes are livebearers) so you need to space the dose out carefully, I usually space it 9 days apart, for two, sometimes three treatments. The other problem with prazi is in tanks that have been dosed with it multiple times, bacteria grows that consumes the prazi faster than it can work. That issue is only seen in tanks having been dosed with prazi 4+ times.

Are you in a position to try a hyposalinity treatment? That works well on flukes and ich, but not velvet or brooklynella.
Jay

 

[Breadbox]

Yes, you can rule out velvet.

I don’t know anything about your prazi product, but the typical dose is 2.2 mg/l.

Truly prazi resistant flukes aren’t really a thing. The problems with prazi stem from it not killing flukes eggs (not all flukes are livebearers) so you need to space the dose out carefully, I usually space it 9 days apart, for two, sometimes three treatments. The other problem with prazi is in tanks that have been dosed with it multiple times, bacteria grows that consumes the prazi faster than it can work. That issue is only seen in tanks having been dosed with prazi 4+ times.

Are you in a position to try a hyposalinity treatment? That works well on flukes and ich, but not velvet or brooklynella.
Jay

As it turns out some of my fishes definitely has ich(some other white spot disease), my angelfish caught a bad case of white spot pimple face(only the face, not the body) this evening, my clown goby is covered in spots.

Rest of my fishes aren't feeling too great(lethargic, scratching) but has no white spots at all, will be moving to treat all my fishes with copper safe in QT, thank you for your advice thus far.

 

[vetteguy53081]

As it turns out some of my fishes definitely has ich(some other white spot disease), my angelfish caught a bad case of white spot pimple face(only the face, not the body) this evening, my clown goby is covered in spots.

Rest of my fishes aren't feeling too great(lethargic, scratching) but has no white spots at all, will be moving to treat all my fishes with copper safe in QT, thank you for your advice thus far.

Pictures under white light?

 

[Breadbox]

Pictures under white light?

Angel is being camera shy so this is the best I can get, but I need to correct a previous mistake, angel's head and fins are covered in white spots, but the body seem to be spared.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Angel is being camera shy so this is the best I can get, but I need to correct a previous mistake, angel's head and fins are covered in white spots, but the body seem to be spared.

Jay was gracious enough to reply to you as he is on vacation. This is something both he and I like - pics for assessment purposes.
Pics are a little dark but with ich, you can count the dots on each fish. If they are covered with dots like the solar system.
Then there are behaviors . . . . . . Get a respiration count on one of the fish by counting the gill beats for 15 seconds and multiply it by 4. If the rate is less than 120, it is ich, not velvet. With velvet, you will see :
- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body.

My guess is ich and with that, the best ich treatment is copper-based medication. Rather than treating the main aquarium, move the sick fish to a bare bottomed quarantine or treatment tank. This should be aerated and have the same water conditions as the main aquarium. . . But do NOT use water from the infected tank.
Mardel Coppersafe from Fritz Aquatics treats both freshwater and saltwater ich, along with other diseases, including Velvet (Oodinium) and other external parasites. However, because it is a copper-based treatment made from chelated copper sulfate. To use Coppersafe, add 1 teaspoon of medication for every 4 gallons of water, or 1 cup of every 190 gallons. The solution will remain active in the tank for more than one month. Dont use my measurements as a base but rather monitor copper levels of between 2.25 and 2.5ppm
>>>>> WHEN USING ANY COPPER IN WATER - HAVE A RELIABLE TEST KIT TO MONITOR LEVELS. IT'S A MUST <<< and NO API kit either

 

[Breadbox]

Yes, you can rule out velvet.

I don’t know anything about your prazi product, but the typical dose is 2.2 mg/l.

Truly prazi resistant flukes aren’t really a thing. The problems with prazi stem from it not killing flukes eggs (not all flukes are livebearers) so you need to space the dose out carefully, I usually space it 9 days apart, for two, sometimes three treatments. The other problem with prazi is in tanks that have been dosed with it multiple times, bacteria grows that consumes the prazi faster than it can work. That issue is only seen in tanks having been dosed with prazi 4+ times.

Are you in a position to try a hyposalinity treatment? That works well on flukes and ich, but not velvet or brooklynella.
Jay

Sorry but I have one last question, how common is flashing/scratching a symptom for ick? I have heard that flashing is more likely to be a symptom of flukes rather than ick.

Curiously, none of my fishes that have visible white spots flash at all(Angel, Clown goby). While the fishes that do not have white spots(Midas blenny, Gramma) flash constantly.

Is this a case of Ick+Flukes here? I know it is usually not recommended to dose more than one medication at a time, but if I have to do it, can sometime like General cure/Prazi be dosed with copper? Also considering Maracyn2 for possible bacterial infection from all the scratching.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Sorry but I have one last question, how common is flashing/scratching a symptom for ick? I have heard that flashing is more likely to be a symptom of flukes rather than ick.

Curiously, none of my fishes that have visible white spots flash at all(Angel, Clown goby). While the fishes that do not have white spots(Midas blenny, Gramma) flash constantly.

Is this a case of Ick+Flukes here? I know it is usually not recommended to dose more than one medication at a time, but if I have to do it, can sometime like General cure/Prazi be dosed with copper? Also considering Maracyn2 for possible bacterial infection from all the scratching.

Scratching is not a primary symptom of ich, but you may see it. I don’t see a bacterial disease as causing scratching. I would not dose general cure and copper. I have dosed coppersafe and praziquantel itself, but I try not to do that.
I can’t recall - have you considered a freshwater dip to buy some time to finish the copper and then hit them with prazi again?
I still wonder if your prazi product was too weak or something ?
Jay

 

[Breadbox]

Scratching is not a primary symptom of ich, but you may see it. I don’t see a bacterial disease as causing scratching. I would not dose general cure and copper. I have dosed coppersafe and praziquantel itself, but I try not to do that.
I can’t recall - have you considered a freshwater dip to buy some time to finish the copper and then hit them with prazi again?
I still wonder if your prazi product was too weak or something ?
Jay

Thanks, I'll do that. Strangely, the Gramma seems less lethargic after I removed the chiller and allowed temperature to rise to 86F.
Not sure if the chiller is leaking something or the increased temperature has reduced ick activity.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks, I'll do that. Strangely, the Gramma seems less lethargic after I removed the chiller and allowed temperature to rise to 86F.
Not sure if the chiller is leaking something or the increased temperature has reduced ick activity.

Raising the temperature actually makes marine ich worse. This advice is a carryover from treating freshwater ich, but that organism isn’t actually closely related. 86 degrees is actually the sweet spot for marine ich, so if your fish is doing better, it isn’t ich (grin).


Jay