Knoxjoelee
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Sorry to say my domino damsel died last night think he was battling the ich[emoji20]..so how long will my tank be infected before I can add fish again?
Ich
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kevinsmixed90
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what else is in your tank? read up on the lifecycle of ick and velvet disease as they can look similar at first. if your tank is now bare, you can treat with aggressive meds. if not bare you are more limited on treatments.
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Knoxjoelee
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I got hermits,pencil urchin,snails,serpent star an two emarld crabs.
Sorry for your loss. Opinions seem to vary on length of time, best to err on the side of caution. 8-10wks of fallow is the most common time allotted.
No need to treat with any kind of medication.
Here's a great read for future reference. Good luck [emoji2]
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm
No need to treat with any kind of medication.
Here's a great read for future reference. Good luck [emoji2]
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm
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Knoxjoelee
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I don't mind waiting to put fish in. But is it cool to add coral while I'm waiting?
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Knoxjoelee
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Will Victoria green work after fish are gone
kevinsmixed90
Active Member
I will tell you what I have used in a well established mixed reef (6 years old). not sure how the ich got in because I always qt. everything. probably it was always there and was triggered by something. anyway, the product is called "ich attack" made by Kordon and is all natural. the outbreak was very severe my tangs were actually lumpy and almost dead! this stuff stopped it in its tracks. you will need to remove carbon and turn off skimmer during treatment. hope this is helpful knoxjolee. best of luck
1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.
2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).
3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.
4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days and can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research. THISis the reason why 8-weeks fallow time is given -- to include those parasites on or at the end of the cycle range. Remember: The reported and documented cycle time are averages of a range. When fighting this parasite times for treatment are given for the high end of the range not the average time. My philosophy is why risk only being 95% sure? Fallow times are given for over 99.9% success at killing this parasite, for instance. See 10. under Treatments.
5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?!
6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).
7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.
8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!
9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.
10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES.
11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.
12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but their water can carry them.
13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.
14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.
Lee Birch- MicroBiologist
2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).
3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.
4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days and can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research. THISis the reason why 8-weeks fallow time is given -- to include those parasites on or at the end of the cycle range. Remember: The reported and documented cycle time are averages of a range. When fighting this parasite times for treatment are given for the high end of the range not the average time. My philosophy is why risk only being 95% sure? Fallow times are given for over 99.9% success at killing this parasite, for instance. See 10. under Treatments.
5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?!
6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).
7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.
8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!
9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.
10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES.
11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.
12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but their water can carry them.
13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.
14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.
Lee Birch- MicroBiologist
rlman41299
Valuable Member
This was posted in one of the ICH threads here on R2R. "Peter Burgess conducted a series of experiments in 1992, partially to fulfill the requirements for his PhD. He proved that ich tomonts can encyst upon glass, plastic, gravel, metal, wood, and "shell materials" including staghorn corals. Interestingly, he couldn't get tomonts to even attach to an Asteria starfish or a Echinus sea urchin. But I know people who swear they got ich, velvet, brook in their tank from sea urchins".
So I believe that the tomonts stage of ich can attach itself on hard surfaces including frag plugs, rocks and even the corals itself. I just went through the same thing. My tank was ichless since I setup my new tank from previous tank and all fish were qt from transfer. Tank ran ich free with no indication whatsoever that it is present since November of last year and every single fish added was qt for 6 weeks with cupramine. Not 'till 3 weeks ago when I introduced an sps colony to my tank (dipped in bayer too) and days later fish started to scratch but no visible ich yet 'till later when they showed spots. Lost a few fish after a week and now running the tank fallow again for 10 weeks.
So, yes ICH can be introduced to your system by way of certain corals and inverts during their tomont stage.
So can you add corals while tank is running fallow? Yes of course as long as you are sure you qt'ed it or if not as you add the coral to your tank your countdown for running fallow re starts to zero and start over again just to be on the safe side. It's what I would do.
So I believe that the tomonts stage of ich can attach itself on hard surfaces including frag plugs, rocks and even the corals itself. I just went through the same thing. My tank was ichless since I setup my new tank from previous tank and all fish were qt from transfer. Tank ran ich free with no indication whatsoever that it is present since November of last year and every single fish added was qt for 6 weeks with cupramine. Not 'till 3 weeks ago when I introduced an sps colony to my tank (dipped in bayer too) and days later fish started to scratch but no visible ich yet 'till later when they showed spots. Lost a few fish after a week and now running the tank fallow again for 10 weeks.
So, yes ICH can be introduced to your system by way of certain corals and inverts during their tomont stage.
So can you add corals while tank is running fallow? Yes of course as long as you are sure you qt'ed it or if not as you add the coral to your tank your countdown for running fallow re starts to zero and start over again just to be on the safe side. It's what I would do.
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Knoxjoelee
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Thank you guys so much!!
I live in Maine where you can't buy copper at any lfs store anywhere. So I did the tank transfer method and it worked better than copper. I used two, two gallon tanks and switched them back and forth from those two tanks for 12 days. Each time I took the empty tank and soaked it in pure white vinegar over night (I have gone through a LOT of vinegar). In the morning I cleaned it out and dried it completely. I did my morning routine and made sure it was completely dry for a few hours (making sure not to go over the 18 hour mark because of the nature of the ich cycle). I used spring water, not RO/DI. Reason for this, is to let what's in the water shock any surviving ich with fresh water. That sits for 20 min. until room temperature. Than I get rid of chlorine and get all of my parameters exactly the same (heat, saline, calcium, ALL of it... the complete kit) in order to keep down stress. My fish do not breath hard or show any sign of stress during the transfer. I also never use a net. The water feels the same to them so the stress is almost non-existant. The tanks are also identical so the environment doesn't change. I put the heater and bubbler in the exact same place each time. After 12 days of this (constant two gallon a day salt water making, heating and cleaning) I transfer them to a third tank, which is the usual ten gallon QT tank. They live there for the remainder of the ten weeks. I take them out and put them in a two gallon tank once a week to thoroughly clean the QT tank, vinegar and all over night just as I would during the first 12 days. Then back into the tank for the rest of the week. Hypo dang near killed my fish. The stress is just too great for them. I would rather work harder and stress them out less biologically and have better chances at saving my fish. Not having extra tanks is no excuse. Anything (not metal) that can hold two gallons of water will suffice as a transfer tank. You only need two of them. I am sure copper works great, but I have no access to it. This was not as much work as it seems its just a lot of retrieving water. If you can manage two gallons of water a day and two mixing bowls large enough to hold them, you can get rid of ich using this method. I've don't this both times I have had ich. I went three years it free after the first time and its been a little over a year this past time. Now I know how I must of gotten it too. I do QT new coral, however apparently not long enough. I wasn't aware you could get it via coral. I was concerned with other things regarding them. I appreciate this insight. For me, it must of come in with the introduction of a branching frogspawn (for other's awareness). I am very happy with the transfer method and I highly suggest it to anyone who is in my shoes. I don't advocate hypo, although I won't begrudge those who have had success with it. Thanks so much for this new info though guys. You rock!
pdiehm
Valuable Member
Use the tank transfer method as Turtle said. Get yourself a $8 colander from a kitchen store, and do the transfers at 72 hours
when I get fish, the plan is put them in a 10 gallon tank. So if they come at say 11am, put them in the tank by 1pm...I'll take 7 hours off my 72 hour clock, and do the next transfer in 63 hours (giving me wiggle room), and then every 72 hours thereafter, treating with Praziquantel on transfers 2 and 4. Then 4 weeks in my 20 gallon long QT tank.
when I get fish, the plan is put them in a 10 gallon tank. So if they come at say 11am, put them in the tank by 1pm...I'll take 7 hours off my 72 hour clock, and do the next transfer in 63 hours (giving me wiggle room), and then every 72 hours thereafter, treating with Praziquantel on transfers 2 and 4. Then 4 weeks in my 20 gallon long QT tank.
If it helps anyone, here is my "how to" on TTM: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/
I looked for praziquantel up here. We don't have that either. Geez you guys are lucky. Our state just isn't any good about salt water. I have to have everything mailed in. We have two lfs in Maine (other than ich infested Petco), and one is on the other side of the state, the other carries minimal everything because they are new. Hopefully this will change. Regardless, you say this worked well? I might add that onto my method later on as a precaution, if you feel this was a good one. Everything we have up here says "all natural" and doesn't even give you an ingredient list, so you can't check to see any scientific research behind the treatments. It's depressing.
