Icp Phosphorus Levels

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My latest Icp measured 0.06 ppm of phosphorus which converts to 60 ppb or 0.18 po4. Everyone is always stating that corals reefs have undetectable po4 but according to the Icp comparison charts, Fiji has 0.051 ppm (0.15 po4), Hawaii and St Thomas have 0.07 ppm (0.21 po4), and Florida has 0.12 ppm (0.336 po4) Yet Icp analysis recommends 0.003-0.008 ppm. Anyone else confused???
 
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No rebuttal from the nsw die hards????
I don't particularly like running low phosphate either, but I would suspect there is a significant ammount of variation in phosphate levels depending on exactly where on the reef one tests, with some areas testing near undetectable and others much higher. Ocean waters aren't anywhere near homogeneous even over very short distances, due to upwelling and other phenomena.
 
I don't particularly like running low phosphate either, but I would suspect there is a significant ammount of variation in phosphate levels depending on exactly where on the reef one tests, with some areas testing near undetectable and others much higher. Ocean waters aren't anywhere near homogeneous even over very short distances, due to upwelling and other phenomena.
I would assume Icp-analysis took multiple samples to achieve a standard measurement. Either way, 0.15 po4 for Fiji is much higher than the typical barely detectable recommended standard that gets thrown around on a daily basis.
 
I would assume Icp-analysis took multiple samples to achieve a standard measurement. Either way, 0.15 po4 for Fiji is much higher than the typical barely detectable recommended standard that gets thrown around on a daily basis.
Yeah, I don't know their methology either, so hard to say.
 
Hello,
I am not trying to start any type of debate, but the co-owner of a popular European brand additives and salts, has formulated their products around NSW values. That said, if this were simply a guy in a suit, behind a desk, using data and research to guide his company, then I would be rather skeptical. However, he actually dives more than he is in the office, on many reefs around the world, taking photos of experiences, and of course sharing them accordingly. Incidentally, they have a farm and tremendous display that rivals some of the nicest tanks I have seen, their products are used here for observation and testing. These photos, are in most cases used in their marketing logos. I think much more research needs to go into this, but I will just say that it would be hard to use a single test to determine a complete result. I would be more interested in seeing how these levels fluctuate in real time, that to me would help us further advance this hobby.
Now,
There is no doubt that to date, we have evidence in our aquariums that support both arguments. There are several tanks that are not displayed on this forum that would rebut the argument that ULNS are starving corals. Running ULNS is a totally different beast than the every day aquarium, it is hands on and requires attention to detail, daily maintenance and dosing, increased bio load and feedings, but more importantly observation. My friend, this is not for everyone, and I will tell you that I love the premise of it, but in my current setup, I opted for more live rock, POWERFUL skimming, and heavy frozen feeding. I am quite ULNS at this point, and plan to run my system that way. Also, I use a MH 250 for 6 hours a day, with a 145 watt LED panel, and 160 watt LED panel on either side.
I saw Chris from ACI interiview last night, and he further concluded a suspicion I have had for a few years regarding nutrients associated to light. His indication was that he sees several species of corals thrive in low par scenarios, showing insane coloration and growth, but his correlates in to the statement that nutrients are higher, coincidence? He also uses MH, but only 4 hours a day, claiming 6500k Iwasaki being #1 choice for growth. Known the guy for years, back when he owned a popular shop in Tampa, been in the game for a long time.
So, there really is not an argument, together we can help guide hobbyists in the right direction, but in the right direction for "them". I will not argue any statement about higher nutrients than what we have been indoctrinated to believe. That goes for a lot more than reefing ;) Many years ago, folks here in the states bashed me for running t5's, on another reef site, lol, until the pics. Heck, I was using KZ bulbs, to boot. So, there are too many ways to light, too many ways to filter, too many ways to simply run our tanks. I have seen your pics, and love the look of your corals, keep up the great work!
 
Do they only measure phosphorous or is that erroneous and actually phosphate? The levels are so low I'd suspect it's actually phosphate.

Edit: and for what it's worth, I never had detectable levels of phosphates while I was using Scripps NSW either (San Diego coastline) but I didnt have a Hanna ULR at the time either.
 
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Hello,
I am not trying to start any type of debate, but the co-owner of a popular European brand additives and salts, has formulated their products around NSW values. That said, if this were simply a guy in a suit, behind a desk, using data and research to guide his company, then I would be rather skeptical. However, he actually dives more than he is in the office, on many reefs around the world, taking photos of experiences, and of course sharing them accordingly. Incidentally, they have a farm and tremendous display that rivals some of the nicest tanks I have seen, their products are used here for observation and testing. These photos, are in most cases used in their marketing logos. I think much more research needs to go into this, but I will just say that it would be hard to use a single test to determine a complete result. I would be more interested in seeing how these levels fluctuate in real time, that to me would help us further advance this hobby.
Now,
There is no doubt that to date, we have evidence in our aquariums that support both arguments. There are several tanks that are not displayed on this forum that would rebut the argument that ULNS are starving corals. Running ULNS is a totally different beast than the every day aquarium, it is hands on and requires attention to detail, daily maintenance and dosing, increased bio load and feedings, but more importantly observation. My friend, this is not for everyone, and I will tell you that I love the premise of it, but in my current setup, I opted for more live rock, POWERFUL skimming, and heavy frozen feeding. I am quite ULNS at this point, and plan to run my system that way. Also, I use a MH 250 for 6 hours a day, with a 145 watt LED panel, and 160 watt LED panel on either side.
I saw Chris from ACI interiview last night, and he further concluded a suspicion I have had for a few years regarding nutrients associated to light. His indication was that he sees several species of corals thrive in low par scenarios, showing insane coloration and growth, but his correlates in to the statement that nutrients are higher, coincidence? He also uses MH, but only 4 hours a day, claiming 6500k Iwasaki being #1 choice for growth. Known the guy for years, back when he owned a popular shop in Tampa, been in the game for a long time.
So, there really is not an argument, together we can help guide hobbyists in the right direction, but in the right direction for "them". I will not argue any statement about higher nutrients than what we have been indoctrinated to believe. That goes for a lot more than reefing ;) Many years ago, folks here in the states bashed me for running t5's, on another reef site, lol, until the pics. Heck, I was using KZ bulbs, to boot. So, there are too many ways to light, too many ways to filter, too many ways to simply run our tanks. I have seen your pics, and love the look of your corals, keep up the great work!
Great response and I’m following your thread build thread as well and look forward to it’s progression. Fabulous start so far. I’ve never claimed that ulns do not work or can not work, I basically think that are too difficult for a new reefer bc there is way more involved than just testing no3 and po4. But that is not why I started this thread. This thread is to clarify actual phosphorus levels surrounding a healthy coral reef.
 
I collect NSW myself, anytime the GS swings close enough to bring in that really Bahama blue water. I've been testing that water for close to 20 years and RARELY have I seen detectable p04, if there are any there, it's very low.

Maybe at low-tide when the inlets pour out, then you might get a decent reading. Not from clean ocean water, at least IME.

You said Fiji, but I see Hawaii? It sort of makes a difference. Fiji is way more isolated than Hawaii, St. Thomas, and FL. All three can have lots of run-off and dirty the surrounding water. These may be newer readings around those areas, but you have to think, has it always been that way? Reefs are in decline around the world, and those 3 locations have seen major loses in stony coral?
 
I collect NSW myself, anytime the GS swings close enough to bring in that really Bahama blue water. I've been testing that water for close to 20 years and RARELY have I seen detectable p04, if there are any there, it's very low.

Maybe at low-tide when the inlets pour out, then you might get a decent reading. Not from clean ocean water, at least IME.

You said Fiji, but I see Hawaii? It sort of makes a difference. Fiji is way more isolated than Hawaii, St. Thomas, and FL. All three can have lots of run-off and dirty the surrounding water. These may be newer readings around those areas, but you have to think, has it always been that way? Reefs are in decline around the world, and those 3 locations have seen major loses in stony coral?
Perfect
What test kits are you using?
 
Here are all of my Icp results dating back to July of 2018
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I applaud you for doing such frequent tests. It’s pretty gnarly some of your salinity measurements are slightly elevated though.
 
I use ICP analysis and feel its accurate on most of the elements. However, Phosphates are always elevated compared to what my eye and Hanna ULR says. I had not tested anything other than ALK for 6 months and noticed a sudden drop in 2part consumption. An ICP analysis helped me identify very Low CA and MG levels. - which turned to be accurate. I imagine SR, iron, Iodine have also checked out as a good range. But Phosphates never rely on this value i believe Hanna checker gives me a better idea of my PO
 
I use ICP analysis and feel its accurate on most of the elements. However, Phosphates are always elevated compared to what my eye and Hanna ULR says. I had not tested anything other than ALK for 6 months and noticed a change in consumption. An ICP analysis helped me identify very Low CA and MG levels. Which turned to be accurate. I imagine SR and Iodine have also checked out as a good range. But Phosphates never
Their phosphorus has always been spot on with all of my Hanna checkers. I tested with my new ultra low phosphate checker the same day as I sent the test and it was 0.18 po4 which converts to 0.06 ppm phosphorus.
 

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