ICP results are in - is it time to panic yet?

[Suohhen]

Foods are not all equal. 1/8 tsp of TDO is about 2 cubes of .1oz frozen and 10 times higher in phosphate than shrimp. A lot of people these days have trouble keeping nutrients from bottoming out so we love the higher fat and phosphate content of TDO but if you can't keep phosphates in check there are plenty of other options.
Ofc the variable of phosphate binding to rock makes it tuff to nail down what is going on and whether the issue has been resolved but for reference I feed 2x the amount you do to my 100g reef that is certainly one of those systems whereby nutrients can be hard to keep from bottoming out.

 

[blasterman]

am I way off base here

or is it after watching about eight straight years of reported back ICP results, 89% are in a concerned/primed ready to react state and the other 100% have enough tin to make a six pack out of their water

the majority send samples from an otherwise perfect reef into ICP out of curiosity, and then the results convert those owners into not having fun anymore?


im no chemist but am a pattern watcher. a staunch relayer... of patterns.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Foods are not all equal. 1/8 tsp of TDO is about 2 cubes of .1oz frozen and 10 times higher in phosphate than shrimp. A lot of people these days have trouble keeping nutrients from bottoming out so we love the higher fat and phosphate content of TDO but if you can't keep phosphates in check there are plenty of other options.
Ofc the variable of phosphate binding to rock makes it tuff to nail down what is going on and whether the issue has been resolved but for reference I feed 2x the amount you do to my 100g reef that is certainly one of those systems whereby nutrients can be hard to keep from bottoming out.

This is something I was trying to find out. I like feeding pellets in the morning for two reasons...super quick if you're on your way out the door, and can be fed from an auto feeder if the need arises. So the question becomes, if part of the phosphate buildup has come from the morning TDO pellets, are there pellets that are known to be lower in PO4? I do have Sustainable Aquatics Hatchery Diet that I feed to my nano (tiny mouths like tiny food) and PE Mysis pellets that have been sitting on the shelf.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

am I way off base here

or is it after watching about eight straight years of reported back ICP results, 89% are in a concerned/primed ready to react state and the other 100% have enough tin to make a six pack out of their water

the majority send samples from an otherwise perfect reef into ICP out of curiosity, and then the results convert those owners into not having fun anymore?


im no chemist but am a pattern watcher. a staunch relayer... of patterns.

I'm not sure why double checking the accuracy of home tests through the use of ICP is a bad thing?

 

[brandon429]

It’s not, they’re feeding back on a wide array of params and I’m used to mainly tracking reactions to perceived free ammonia.

that being said, Randy doesn’t always agree the stuff they measure is fully accurate based on sinks and bio availability issues but I’d be curious to see what they report on my aged system, I’d like to know more than the common params and nobody other than ICP could get me a decent picture.


still though their results cause marked alarm justified or not. The bulk of tanks that sent in a test looked fine to me in full tank shots though, or at least appropriate for the age of the system at the time of concern.

 

[Suohhen]

This is something I was trying to find out. I like feeding pellets in the morning for two reasons...super quick if you're on your way out the door, and can be fed from an auto feeder if the need arises. So the question becomes, if part of the phosphate buildup has come from the morning TDO pellets, are there pellets that are known to be lower in PO4? I do have Sustainable Aquatics Hatchery Diet that I feed to my nano (tiny mouths like tiny food) and PE Mysis pellets that have been sitting on the shelf.

I feed a mix of TDO and HIKARI Seaweed Extreme. Generally algae based foods are 10x higher in phosphate than shrimp and yet the Hikari SE has half of what TDO does (maybe, these are min values stated so assumptions are made). TDO was made to raise fish fry so it makes sense that it doesn't follow the common logic of reef food manufacturing to limit phosphate and not state the amount on the label. Funny how that works that the product they were not trying to market to reefers has become so popular.
For reference Randy has some great info on phos in fish food.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

I feed a mix of TDO and HIKARI Seaweed Extreme. Generally algae based foods are 10x higher in phosphate than shrimp and yet the Hikari SE has half of what TDO does (maybe, these are min values stated so assumptions are made). TDO was made to raise fish fry so it makes sense that it doesn't follow the common logic of reef food manufacturing to limit phosphate and not state the amount on the label. Funny how that works that the product they were not trying to market to reefers has become so popular.
For reference Randy has some great info on phos in fish food.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

Great info, and thank you for the link!

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Just wanted to add, it's not so much that I'm chasing a particular number, just hoping to better understand and then hopefully use that stabilize in a healthy way. Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion. It's great having a place like this for so many ideas to mingle.

 

[downonthereef]

Prior to Feb/March I was maintaining Nitrate <10 and PO4 < 0.1.

In March I submitted an ICP test over a concern about a sudden rise in nutrients. As much as anything I wanted to confirm that my test kits weren't faulty. As it turned out, I was right, sometime between Feb and March things had gone off the rails.

At that time I wasn't sure of the cause but I started keeping a closer watch on feeding and continued with weekly 10% water changes as well as adding some bacteria in case the cause was some sort of deficiency.

The problem is, the numbers kept climbing.

This morning I got another ICP test back and now I'm really asking what on earth is going on?

IM 50 Lagoon, 1 Year, Dry Rock

Fish: 2xOcellaris Clownfish, 1xYWG, 1xMidas Blenny, 1xPink Streaked Wrasse, 1xRed Lined Wrasse
CUC: Assortment of snails (trochus, astraea, nassarius, cerith, conch) and hermit crabs (blue leg and red leg)
Other Inverts: Tuxedo Urchin, 2xPeppermint Shrimps, Tiger Pistol Shrimp

Corals (mostly smaller frags): Mix of Softies and LPS, a couple SPS

Algae is virtually non-existent

Feeding:
AM - approx 1/8 tsp TDO Chroma Boost Small pellets, PM - 1/3 cube PE Mysis
Perhaps twice a month freshly hatched live brine shrimp (home grown)
Live phyto a few times (purchased, not home grown)
Reef Roids perhaps once a month, just changed to BenePets last week
A single Hikari Algae Wafer or Carnivore Pellet once or twice a week for the inverts

Other relevant history - Had Ostreopsis dinos in December, fought with UV, blackout, Microbacter7 dosing, nutrients had bottomed out in September. In May I had an AquaBiomics test which found my tank to be unusually lacking in diversity.

This week I started a series of 30% water changes. I did the first on Wed last week and another on Saturday. I'll be doing up water for another this week.

Is there anything else I can be doing?

And the bigger question, what have I been doing that has caused this sudden accumulation of nutrients in the first place? I wondered if perhaps I'd had a bad batch of phyto. Maybe the CUC is too big (for whatever reason, vendors keep giving me free snails, please stop sending me extra snails).

But mostly I've been maintaining the tank the same way since I added fish and corals. I'm a little alarmed here.

It was a bad feeling looking at my tank this morning and questioning my tiny measuring spoon full of pellets.

Just out of curiosity, have you had any coral loss due to these high phosphates and phosphorus?

 

[Kris 2020]

Have you ever cleaned back in your filtration area? When I had an AIO I cleaned back there every 6 months or so because there would be a buildup of detritus and old...things, nasty little wads of escaped filter floss and such.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Just out of curiosity, have you had any coral loss due to these high phosphates and phosphorus?

Possibly. With so many variables it's difficult to say "yes, definitely that" but within the time frame I lost a monti and a cyphastrea that had previously been doing fine. Might have also been the cause of my Superstar zoa melting. Might have been the cause of tissue loss at the base of a duncan. Might have been the cause of die off on another monti cap.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Have you ever cleaned back in your filtration area? When I had an AIO I cleaned back there every 6 months or so because there would be a buildup of detritus and old...things, nasty little wads of escaped filter floss and such.

Yes, last deep clean of the chambers and equipment was May 1. Wasn't nearly as bad as the previous deep clean which according to my notes was November 4. And I'd like to take this moment to express how much I hate doing it. Somebody needs to design some sort of flexible toilet brush to clean that space that IM tanks have under the filter chambers. I often regret not getting the 50 Ext instead of the AIO.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yup, according to all the literature my tank should be a massive algae monster.

Or, if you drive phosphate and nitrate even higher, it might look like this:

Skeptical Reefkeeping 9: Test Kits, Chasing Numbers and Phosphate

By Rich Ross and Chris Jury There are many standard parameters in the reefkeeping world that aquarists strive to match in their home reefs – water quality,

reefs.com

Rich’s 150 gallon display, on a 300 gallon system, is running a phosphate level of 1.24 ppm, a level at 24.8 times higher than the often recommended .05 ppm. Photo by Richard Ross.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Or, if you drive phosphate and nitrate even higher, it might look like this:

Skeptical Reefkeeping 9: Test Kits, Chasing Numbers and Phosphate

By Rich Ross and Chris Jury There are many standard parameters in the reefkeeping world that aquarists strive to match in their home reefs – water quality,

reefs.com

Rich’s 150 gallon display, on a 300 gallon system, is running a phosphate level of 1.24 ppm, a level at 24.8 times higher than the often recommended .05 ppm. Photo by Richard Ross.

I love this example. If I ever needed proof that it's not as simple as a single number.
And then I suddenly got a wallstreetbets vibe...to the moon, diamond hands! ;Hilarious

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Foods are not all equal. 1/8 tsp of TDO is about 2 cubes of .1oz frozen and 10 times higher in phosphate than shrimp. A lot of people these days have trouble keeping nutrients from bottoming out so we love the higher fat and phosphate content of TDO but if you can't keep phosphates in check there are plenty of other options.
Ofc the variable of phosphate binding to rock makes it tuff to nail down what is going on and whether the issue has been resolved but for reference I feed 2x the amount you do to my 100g reef that is certainly one of those systems whereby nutrients can be hard to keep from bottoming out.

Not sure if it makes a huge difference but I don't use a standard measuring spoon so I thought I better double check the size. It's actually less than 1/8 tsp. The spoon marked "Smidgen" is my pellet scooper.

 

[Suohhen]

Not sure if it makes a huge difference but I don't use a standard measuring spoon so I thought I better double check the size. It's actually less than 1/8 tsp. The spoon marked "Smidgen" is my pellet scooper.

It's strange because afaik the terms dash, pinch, smitgen were never accurate measurements but it seems like the standard for measuring spoons is that 1/4 is a Tad, 1/8 Dash, 1/16 Tad, and 1/32 a Smigden. That is 1/4 of a Dash so basically around 1/2 a standard .1 oz frozen cube. Ofc if you do a heaping scoop it is probably more near 1/3 of a Dash but yeah much less. Still 10x the phos of shrimp is a lot but like I said it is actually pretty standard for anything that includes algae.
For sure pellets are awesome to keep on an auto feeder. Without the auto feeder there would be no way I could feed my fish 3x everyday which I consider mandatory for keeping a large community of active fish.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

It's strange because afaik the terms dash, pinch, smitgen were never accurate measurements but it seems like the standard for measuring spoons is that 1/4 is a Tad, 1/8 Dash, 1/16 Tad, and 1/32 a Smigden. That is 1/4 of a Dash so basically around 1/2 a standard .1 oz frozen cube. Ofc if you do a heaping scoop it is probably more near 1/3 of a Dash but yeah much less. Still 10x the phos of shrimp is a lot but like I said it is actually pretty standard for anything that includes algae.
For sure pellets are awesome to keep on an auto feeder. Without the auto feeder there would be no way I could feed my fish 3x everyday which I consider mandatory for keeping a large community of active fish.

And I learn something new again...I had no idea that there was any sort of standard for a smidgen! I know at one time there was a whole set in the drawer including dash and tad. I seriously thought it was just to be cute. ;Hilarious