ICP testing - are the labs accredited?

[TastyScrants]

Hello,

Does anybody happen to know if the likes of Triton, ATI, or FaunaMarin have laboratories accredited against any international standards carrying out their ICP testing?

I want to start getting a 6 monthly ICP on my tank, but for me, as someone working in the healthcare IVD device industry, laboratory test data from an unaccredited method/lab is just as valuable as me trying to read my Salifert PO4 kit in a dimly lit room!

Im sure they’d have some sort of quality mark, as it’s great marketing.

I’d be interested to hear more.

If this doesn’t garner much information I’ll try reaching out directly to these companies.

 

[blaxsun]

Considering the vast number of people who use them, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are. If there's nothing on the masthead of their website you might need to contact them directly.

 

[TastyScrants]

Considering the vast number of people who use them, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are. If there's nothing on the masthead of their website you might need to contact them directly.

Yes I was thinking the same. I’ve now reached out to ATI and Triton to begin with, just waiting on a reply now!

 

[WVNed]

Who would accredit them? I am not aware of any international standards for fish tank testing either.

 

[TastyScrants]

So I had a replay from Triton.

Quite a defensive reply actually. I won’t share it because I’m not here to critique their customer service, I only asked them if they were accredited. I’m sure their business is booming with the 5000 tests per week quoted in their email, but I was just asking if those 5000 tests per week were performed with an accredited method.

They confirmed they do not have any accreditation.

 

[TastyScrants]

Who would accredit them? I am not aware of any international standards for fish tank testing either.

I agree. I’m just asking out of interest, as laboratory accreditation is a big part of my job. Ensuring my fish and corals have trustworthy data for me to make decision with is important to me.

 

[WVNed]

I ask you again. Who would accredit them? You cant get accredited unless someone exists to do it.

If you asked who or how they calibrated their equipment and how often they checked it it would be another matter.

 

[WVNed]

So I had a replay from Triton.

Quite a defensive reply actually. I won’t share it because I’m not here to critique their customer service, I only asked them if they were accredited. I’m sure their business is booming with the 5000 tests per week quoted in their email, but I was just asking if those 5000 tests per week were performed with an accredited method.

They confirmed they do not have any accreditation.

Please show us your accreditation to post on the net. Prove to us you are reliable.

So I have just asked you something that no one else complies with.

Please don't give me a guarded or evasive answer answer like "No one else is".

 

[GlassMunky]

Hello,

Does anybody happen to know if the likes of Triton, ATI, or FaunaMarin have laboratories accredited against any international standards carrying out their ICP testing?

I want to start getting a 6 monthly ICP on my tank, but for me, as someone working in the healthcare IVD device industry, laboratory test data from an unaccredited method/lab is just as valuable as me trying to read my Salifert PO4 kit in a dimly lit room!

Im sure they’d have some sort of quality mark, as it’s great marketing.

I’d be interested to hear more.

If this doesn’t garner much information I’ll try reaching out directly to these companies.

Easy answer, no, because for aquarium testing it doesn’t matter if it’s off a little bit like with medical stuff.

 

[WVNed]

A more reasonable answer would be some companies like Triton have proven reliable over time by a large number of users.
Others haven't and word spreads on the net.

 

[Timfish]

I think ICP testing is a big improvement in our testing abilities but it's not without it's faults and some kind of accreditation would be an improvement. At least publishing the results of a certified seawater standard like Rich Ross did would give ICP tests a bit more legitimacy IMO

Skeptical Reefkeeping 12: Triton Lab ICP-OES Testing of a Certified Artificial Saltwater Standard

From ReefsMagazine By Rich Ross and Dr. Chris Maupin At MACNA 25 in Denver, the potential for the new ICP-OES aquarium water testing by Triton Lab in Germany made many saltwater hobbyists swoon. Th…

packedhead.net

 

[ReefRxSWFL]

Hello,

Does anybody happen to know if the likes of Triton, ATI, or FaunaMarin have laboratories accredited against any international standards carrying out their ICP testing?

I want to start getting a 6 monthly ICP on my tank, but for me, as someone working in the healthcare IVD device industry, laboratory test data from an unaccredited method/lab is just as valuable as me trying to read my Salifert PO4 kit in a dimly lit room!

Im sure they’d have some sort of quality mark, as it’s great marketing.

I’d be interested to hear more.

If this doesn’t garner much information I’ll try reaching out directly to these companies.

Its one of the reasons I’ve e never done it. Just because you bought the machine, if it doesn't get independently teated and certified, how do you know the results are accurate? You can look up certification from LabCorp, Quest Diagnostics, and every hospital with onside lab services. Heck, every gas pump you go to has a dated certification on it. Just because a lot of people use it, doesn't mean it’s accurate. You can buy a brand new Perkin-Elmer Mass Spectrometer, and if you don't calibrate it, and certify it at recommended intervals, its a 6 figure machine that you can use to set your coffee on. When i see how they maintain /certify their machines, and their QA process, i wont be doing it. After all, if you havnt run into snake oil or crappy gear in this hobby, you havnt been doing it long enough.

 

[ReefRxSWFL]

A more reasonable answer would be some companies like Triton have proven reliable over time by a large number of users.
Others haven't and word spreads on the net.

Just because a lot of people use it, doesnt mean they keep up with calibration and maintenance. When you test your Alk, and it comes up 8dkh, do you re-check it? Or do you just recheck when your dKh comes up 2? If you assume the 2 was wrong, which you will recheck, how do you know the 8 was correct? They should provide certification of their lab equipment if they want me to believe values that i can not verify as accurate. The gas pump you go to gets certified that when it says a gallon, you get a gallon. Why shouldn't they do the same?

 

[WVNed]

Its one of the reasons I’ve e never done it. Just because you bought the machine, if it doesn't get independently teated and certified, how do you know the results are accurate? You can look up certification from LabCorp, Quest Diagnostics, and every hospital with onside lab services. Heck, every gas pump you go to has a dated certification on it. Just because a lot of people use it, doesn't mean it’s accurate. You can buy a brand new Perkin-Elmer Mass Spectrometer, and if you don't calibrate it, and certify it at recommended intervals, its a 6 figure machine that you can use to set your coffee on. When i see how they maintain /certify their machines, and their QA process, i wont be doing it. After all, if you havnt run into snake oil or crappy gear in this hobby, you havnt been doing it long enough.

If you called your local gas station and asked if their pumps are certified by the state weights and measures groups they would say yes they are.
If you called and asked if they were accredited to sell gas I wonder what they would say.

I have been an accredited technician. That meant I met a set of standards in a particular industry and field.
There was an entity that handled the standards, testing and certifications that awarded me the accreditation.

If no such entity exists how do you become accredited.

 

[WVNed]

you are interchanging accreditation with certification. They do not mean the same thing,
Generally a device is certified by someone to mean it accurately does what it is supposed to.
That does not mean the person who uses it every day is producing reliable results with it

Accreditation means a group is functioning and meeting a set of standards accepted in an industry. This is a much deeper and wide ranging meaning.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

Hi @BLineDisaster I think you have a very valid point and I'm very interested in the replies from these companies?
I think it is very reasonable for consumers to ask for confirmation of the validity of the results. It would be interesting to learn if there is a certifying organization or at least understand what is the method they use to calibrate and verify their machines.
Do you think the tone of your email could have triggered the unfortunate response?
Did have you tried other companies like ICP-Analysis?

 

[amoore311]

Hi @BLineDisaster I think you have a very valid point and I'm very interested in the replies from these companies?
I think it is very reasonable for consumers to ask for confirmation of the validity of the results. It would be interesting to learn if there is a certifying organization or at least understand what is the method they use to calibrate and verify their machines.
Do you think the tone of your email could have triggered the unfortunate response?
Did have you tried other companies like ICP-Analysis?

There is no accreditation available…. If it’s not available they can’t, be accredited.

this same exact response has been posted 4-5 times in the thread already. Yet people still post questions and comments like it wasn’t.

now you know why the OP got the answer they did.
asking for “accreditation”, when if you understood the basic definition of accreditation in the first place you’d know the answer already.

5000+ tests per day, and multiple successful mainstream trace replenishment programs specifically designed around the results of those tests….. is more than enough evidence to spend the $40 for the average hobbyist.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

@BLineDisaster, I sent ICP tests to both ATI and ICP-Analysis a couple of weeks ago. I checked my water with Mastertonic, Hanna and RedSea at the same time.
To my surprise, I got the display tank results from both on the same day. Still waiting for the RODI results for one of them.
There are some interesting discrepancies in some of the elements, some of them so contradicting that if I took one report I'd think everything is OK, if I consider the other report I would be in the need to take action range.
When I have purchased directly from ICP Analysis, the address says Great White Bottling, Inc. I'm thinking they might also be in the business of selling bottled water, maybe there is more regulation in that business and they might have some info on their accreditation/certification/validation/calibration.
If you haven't tried yet, I'd like to reach out and see what they say.

 

[TastyScrants]

Notice there is a penalty to answering a meaningless question.
Are you accredited?
No
Aha!!! See SEE they said NO.
Never mind there are no means to do it and no one else is either.

You get drug through the mud on the net.

Mr. Smith, when did you stop beating your wife.

it has already been conflated to mean their equipment is not certified and unreliable. A question never asked.

Have a nice day. I am sure this will spin out of control into the cosmos the way most things do on the net. Which is why Triton answered the way they did. No doubt in my mind.

I’m simply asking if they have accreditation against their ICP-OES method. You get accreditation by demonstraithing full method validation studies have been performed to ensure the results you are generating are actually what you say they are.

It reduces error rates, and improves quality.

What if you were given a trace element result that was incorrect and you decided to adjust on that based on that data then ended up crashing your tank and losing thousands spent on coral over years?

I agree with what you initially said, who would accredit them? There may be a body out there. The research labs performing testing on actual sea water for research and pollution study purposes will be accredited. Surely that could be extended to aquaculture and hobbyist.

 

[TastyScrants]

Please show us your accreditation to post on the net. Prove to us you are reliable.

So I have just asked you something that no one else complies with.

Please don't give me a guarded or evasive answer answer like "No one else is".

My intention wasn’t to “post it on the internet” I’m not out in smear campaign. My intention was to find out for my own interest and I would have posted a yes/no here as a result of raising it specifically amongst the community.

you are interchanging accreditation with certification. They do not mean the same thing,
Generally a device is certified by someone to mean it accurately does what it is supposed to.
That does not mean the person who uses it every day is producing reliable results with it

Accreditation means a group is functioning and meeting a set of standards accepted in an industry. This is a much deeper and wide ranging meaning.

I understand what you’re saying, but you are either wrong or there is conflict among what these terms mean internationally (I’m in the UK). The manufacturer of the ICP-OES equipment will have listed performance claims related to the capability of the instrument. The testing company (Triton, ATI etc) would then develop their own method for measuring the analytes in the sample using that equipment. Accreditation would demonstrate that they had created and performed a full validation of their method parameters to assess for error in the method which could occur at a certain point within the measuring range of an analyte; all to a set standard ISO17025 is a perfect example of this. An accreditation body would check that Triton/ATI/Fauna etc method met the criteria of the standard. It would also look for interference in the measurement of one analyte from the presence of another in a certain concentration. They may have also performed interference studies to determine if certain common aquarium treatments could influence the ICP-OES results and provide false data.

Notice there is a penalty to answering a meaningless question.
Are you accredited?
No
Aha!!! See SEE they said NO.
Never mind there are no means to do it and no one else is either.

You get drug through the mud on the net.

Mr. Smith, when did you stop beating your wife.

it has already been conflated to mean their equipment is not certified and unreliable. A question never asked.

Have a nice day. I am sure this will spin out of control into the cosmos the way most things do on the net. Which is why Triton answered the way they did. No doubt in my mind.

Thanks, have a nice day too