ICP testing

[Baldguy]

https://www.icp-analysis.com/
Is this a good thing? Based in Colorado. I've never been into much testing but I would do this. $100 for five tests. Comments please.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here's my discussion of my testing and its utility:

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Now that I look closely at what they have written, they seem to have a very poor understanding of chemistry, which does not give me confidence in the results.

example:

" I know, I did not mention alkalinity. Alkalinity is not an element. It is a term used when we calculate how stable our pH is, i.e. the buffer. The buffer is calculated from compounds containing Ca and a hydroxide compound (OH). Since OH is a compound, ICP-OES will not perform the calculation of alkalinity."

Come on. That's ridiculous.

 

[5280Reefer]

Sorry dang phone [emoji58]

 

[5280Reefer]

....

 

[jason2459]

Now that I look closely at what they have written, they seem to have a very poor understanding of chemistry, which does not give me confidence in the results.

example:

" I know, I did not mention alkalinity. Alkalinity is not an element. It is a term used when we calculate how stable our pH is, i.e. the buffer. The buffer is calculated from compounds containing Ca and a hydroxide compound (OH). Since OH is a compound, ICP-OES will not perform the calculation of alkalinity."

Come on. That's ridiculous.

Just their lack of grammar and editing gives me a lack of confidence.

 

[cigarshark]

Now that I look closely at what they have written, they seem to have a very poor understanding of chemistry, which does not give me confidence in the results.

example:

" I know, I did not mention alkalinity. Alkalinity is not an element. It is a term used when we calculate how stable our pH is, i.e. the buffer. The buffer is calculated from compounds containing Ca and a hydroxide compound (OH). Since OH is a compound, ICP-OES will not perform the calculation of alkalinity."

Come on. That's ridiculous.

 

[cigarshark]

I would like to make a few comments. I hold degrees in applied math and chemistry and I have been a formulating chemist for 23 years with a very nice business. I started a fish store in Denver 3 years ago. 6 month ago I moved the fish store into one of my warehouses and I have built the largest salt water store in Colorado. There isn't anyone within a 800 mile radius that can match the selection of fish I have nor the dry goods, I keep 600-1000 fish in stock and I QT them for 3 weeks and treat them for parasites and bacteria before they go up for sale. I purchased a new Agilent ICP-OES for the express purpose of testing water for the hobbyist, I did this because I could, and because there is a need for an American company to perform the analysis without charging the standard cost per element tested by analytical labs. There are some people that will not like what I do or how I explain ICP-OES, however there are a lot people that do not know the difference between elements and compounds and I can tell you that some self proclaimed coral guru's have asked me the question about why ICP-OES does not do alkalinity, so I offer a basic explanation of why it does not. If everyone knew all about ICP-OES and ICP-MS and Flame AA then explanations would not be necessary. However most people do not, just as most people are not going to go out and spend 6 figures on a machine to test aquarium water. The current website is a basic website to assist people that wanted to place orders before our final packaging is printed and before we get the kits off to our Master Distributor, CoralVue. CoralVue will handle all the wholesale and distribution sales for ICP-Analysis.
While forums can be useful, when people who are known in this hobby say poor things about companies they do not know anything about it turns the forums into just petty gossip, which is no better than the National Enquirer.

 

[jason2459]

I would like to make a few comments. I hold degrees in applied math and chemistry and I have been a formulating chemist for 23 years with a very nice business. I started a fish store in Denver 3 years ago. 6 month ago I moved the fish store into one of my warehouses and I have built the largest salt water store in Colorado. There isn't anyone within a 800 mile radius that can match the selection of fish I have nor the dry goods, I keep 600-1000 fish in stock and I QT them for 3 weeks and treat them for parasites and bacteria before they go up for sale. I purchased a new Agilent ICP-OES for the express purpose of testing water for the hobbyist, I did this because I could, and because there is a need for an American company to perform the analysis without charging the standard cost per element tested by analytical labs. There are some people that will not like what I do or how I explain ICP-OES, however there are a lot people that do not know the difference between elements and compounds and I can tell you that some self proclaimed coral guru's have asked me the question about why ICP-OES does not do alkalinity, so I offer a basic explanation of why it does not. If everyone knew all about ICP-OES and ICP-MS and Flame AA then explanations would not be necessary. However most people do not, just as most people are not going to go out and spend 6 figures on a machine to test aquarium water. The current website is a basic website to assist people that wanted to place orders before our final packaging is printed and before we get the kits off to our Master Distributor, CoralVue. CoralVue will handle all the wholesale and distribution sales for ICP-Analysis.
While forums can be useful, when people who are known in this hobby say poor things about companies they do not know anything about it turns the forums into just petty gossip, which is no better than the National Enquirer.

Your post does not inspire anymore confidence then I had before.

There are ways to explain things to a laymen and still be accurate and complete. Randy has done an excellent job doing so for several decades now.

The Website explains very little about what's actually being tested and even better would be to offer what the LOD will be. (Unless I missed it or has been added since I looked.) I did submit a question on your online form and haven't received an answer back.

So, with the lack of information, incorrect information, and lacking in grammar makes me feel like it's a fly by night setup that will disappear tomorrow.

Just some honest feed back.

With that said I would be extremely thrilled if there's an alternative to Triton based in the US at an affordable price. We do have alternatives though in the US with ENC Labs but at a higher cost for fewer results but possibly more accurate.

As in the end ICP-OES is ok for testing major elements and if not done right is not ok for minor elements and terrible for trace elements. ICP-MS would be better and AA more so.

 

[jason2459]

FWIW, even Triton has a lot of questions left unanswered and skepticism in their method. Being able to show how you will care for the samples and testing would be helpful at least.

http://packedhead.net/2015/triton-lab-icp-oes-testing-of-a-certified-artificial-saltwater-standard/

 

[cigarshark]

The web site has a lot of work to go, it is a basic site to take care of customers that want the testing done now. There is a lot of information about sample handling, testing procedures and calibration of every element along with detection limits that I have not provided. Most of the information will not mean anything to the average person. I do ask that you keep in mind that the web site was put up to take care of customers that wish to order now, the web site will go through a lot of changes as we are having custom programing made to facilitate the importing of test results into a customer's account and allow them to view a history of results.
I do understand the skepticism, however I did not just wake up one day and decide to throw away over $100,000 for giggles.

 

[dragon99]

I see the criticism as constructive, so don't take it too harshly.

I'll add that the 2-test and 4-test pages say 3 and 5 respectively in the description. An error that should probably be fixed.

I ordered a 2-pack, but if you go ahead and throw in 3, that'd be just fine.

edit: It also required me to add an apt # in checkout, but that should be optional (since I'm in a house)

 

[Baldguy]

Randy's article seemed pretty positive about the test itself. Most of the problems some have seem to be the way things were worded on an apparently early version of the site. I will get the test. Not sure how many but I will get at least three. Price is much better than the Triton test. A grand opening sale price would be nice. Any coupon codes floating around?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

While forums can be useful, when people who are known in this hobby say poor things about companies they do not know anything about it turns the forums into just petty gossip, which is no better than the National Enquirer.

You are right I know nothing about your company. BUT, I am an expert chemist with a PhD from Harvard and I know a lot about ICP and have run them on many sorts of materials, including seawater for many articles I have written.

You may do things perfectly well, but your poor description does not lead to confidence and I'd suggest you change it before coming on and blasting my comments as being equivalent to the National Enquirer.

Now I stop being nice.

Your sentence about alkalinity is total nonsensical crap. It is not simplified. It is just wrong, so very wrong.

There is no reason anyone should have confidence in your data with such an utterly incorrect definition of a term at the very heart of chemical reef keeping:


" I know, I did not mention alkalinity. Alkalinity is not an element. It is a term used when we calculate how stable our pH is, i.e. the buffer. The buffer is calculated from compounds containing Ca and a hydroxide compound (OH). Since OH is a compound, ICP-OES will not perform the calculation of alkalinity."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Now, trying to get back on a better track, if you had just agreed that the statement I posted could use work and could we help rewrite it, I'd have happily helped. I still will. But if you try to defend it, we will continue at loggerheads.

 

[d2mini]

Here's what Triton says when you ask why they don't test for Alk.

You cannot test for Alkalinity with an ICP.
Companies that offer Alkalinty testing are using droplet tests, the same as you use at home.

With Alkalinty results can change throughout the day let alone in the time it takes for the sample to reach the lab and be analysed.

We do not see any benefit for the customer carrying out the same test they can at home and with the amount of samples we run every day it would soon become increasingly time consuming.

 

[cigarshark]

I am going to apologize, I probably took things too close to heart. Since I work 7 days a week and usually put in 75-90 hours a week I lose my mind and sometimes over react. I will admit I am not a chemistry instructor and the web site needs a lot of work as this testing program is developed to do nationwide testing and distribution. Plus creating a work process for salt water on a ICP-OES is not a simple project for even a senior instrumental chemist, I had one come in to verify my protocol and provide help with some elements that were giving me trouble. The more elements you want to test, the more complex the testing procedure becomes. I am sure Randy knows what I am talking about. Just because a machine is capable of gathering the information does not always mean it is easy to gather it.
Overall ICP-OES is an amazing machine for what it does and the speed and accuracy that is possible is incredible. So I am going to apologize for rant and apologize for my offensive remarks.

 

[sundog101]

I thought about buying my own ICP tester machine once...then I read what it actually was...then realized that I couldn't do it...then saw the price...then gave up

It's crazy that triton has to ship all the way to Germany (assuming you don't live in Germany). I would be interested in an U.S. version.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here's what I'd change the alkalinity statement to:

We do not test alkalinity because it is not possible to measure alkalinity by ICP.

If you want a more expansive reason, I'd say something like:

We do not test alkalinity because it is not possible to measure alkalinity by ICP. Total alkalinity in seawater is the sum of several chemicals in solution (mostly bicarbonate, carbonate, and borate) and ICP cannot distinguish these chemicals from other chemicals with the same constituent elements. The reason is that ICP detects individual elements such as carbon. Since carbon in seawater is contained in many forms (e.g., carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, bicarbonate, carbonate, and organic molecules), a measure of the total C in the system by ICP cannot determine the concentrations of the different forms and so cannot give a measurement of the total alkalinity.

 

[cigarshark]

Thank you Randy, that is good way of stating it. If you would like to come out and see what I am setting up you are welcome. If you are just send me a message.