Id Ick or Velvet Picture

[chicago]

ok please see attached . I have my own opinion but would like to see what you guys think. Here is pic taken of gills and fins under microscope. Lost several fish in a QT that was going fine and boom. Dead wrasses one day after another. Lost three of them over past three days. Pics in read I am aware that the larger circles are air bubbles. its the ones next to it. Red is of the gills, thanks

 

[chicago]

I have some good videos of these killer

 

[Humblefish]

I see ich & velvet, but will defer to @Christoph on this one.

 

[chicago]

So are you seeing two different parasites in the pics.. i gotta figure out how to post some videos. the loss of the wrasses, went really quick.. in 48 hours.. so i was thinking velvet.. but now what haze.. but also no salt looking white specs... i have lots of experience with ick and tangs and thus can identify that quickly... i think what is interesting and to learn something from this is... if it is ick and or velvet.. no visible signs of any of it on any of the fish.. nothing on the body fins ect.. just in gills basically.

 

[Christoph]

Chicago,

a) what is the magnification on these microscopic images? Is the magnification lower on image #4?
b) How is the movement of this parasites? Do they "circle around" or stay static? - A video would help here. You can upload it to YT and add a link here.
c) What is the macroscopic symptoms on the fish? Behavioral changes?

From the information available so far i would diagnose this as amyloodinium (velvet). But there dont seem to be very high numbers od the parasite present in the gill tissue you microscoped. Are you sure there are not additional environmental factors (ammonia?) that might be in place here?

Best,
Christoph

 

[chicago]

ok... let me explain... the first 3 images in red are taken from a gill cutting. the other two after.. which are lighter are a fin slicing. looking at other threads and the web.. i think i have an understanding of the difference in ick v velvet.. ick is more circlar with cilia. and velvet is more elongated as it moves with a trumpet like front? I have more photos and videos.. i will get some time today and upload them and post..

Fish are all dead. happened over a period of two days.. for a week are so all was good. Absolutely no signs of ick or velvet that was visable to the eye. I was actually thinking it was some type of bacteria but upon looking under the scope discovered these issues..

So what i am saying is... hard to see ick and or velvet on wrassess... not like when looking at the tangs with ick..

 

[chicago]

Maybe we should do a new thread with video and pics for identification purposes.. i have some good videos and pics. i will get them up hear some how.. thanks

 

[tastyfish]

Firstly sorry to hear of your fish losses. I've been there twice. But a huge kudos for taking some scrapings and trying to get a positive ID.

Whilst I can't offer you a positive ID, I believe that Amyloodinium occelatum has a flagellum, which although I cannot identify positively from your pics, the overall structure fits pic 1, assuming the flagellum has been lost for feeding attachment (notice the feeding void in the cytoplasm and elongated, funnel shape). Pic 3 would appear to have a flagellum curled up indicating perhaps, an earlier stage prior to attachment?

You may find it better to get more clarity by attempting to separate from the substrate and using iodine to stain.

However, the speed of mortality would fit either a massive A. occelatum outbreak, resulting in catastrophic gill damage or a viral pathogen over C. irritans in my very limited experience.

Sorry for the contradicting observations.

 

[chicago]

Qt just went into a 1/2 cup bleach bath.. drain and fill and drain and fill and let dry.. will start it over in a week for QT...
Frankly, i have done fallow and other methods.. i posted about fallow .. DT went a year on Fallow.. anyways.. i am going back to old school Copper .. worked so well for me in the past..

gotta love this insane hobby..

 

[tastyfish]

Qt just went into a 1/2 cup bleach bath.. drain and fill and drain and fill and let dry.. will start it over in a week for QT...
Frankly, i have done fallow and other methods.. i posted about fallow .. DT went a year on Fallow.. anyways.. i am going back to old school Copper .. worked so well for me in the past..

gotta love this insane hobby..

Fallow for the tank and copper for the QT are known good ways to eradicate. Prophylactic QT and treatment are the only way to effectively minimise risk of transference back into the tank IMHO & experience.

Good luck, hope the rest come through ok.

 

[chicago]

Yep.. the DT was hypo for 10 -12 months.. lost some fish but some made it.. cleaned up all my problem algea and other bad stuff.. but starting over... fish all go through QT before going in the DT... I have changed my opinion on how to QT but just my way.. I am going back to Copper Safe as a first stage .. then Prazi second. phase after copper..

I got a fish from a supplier.. i will leave their name out... i put it in my QT to wait and see how it was doing.. problem is it had ick that could not be seen as it was in the gills. communicated and infested the rest of the QT tanking out a nice wrasse or two with it.

I had thought this supplier always QT the fish in copper ect.. found out that is not how they do it.. they only treat if there is a visible sigh of issues over a few days or week or two of watching.. so as we know ICK and other badies do not show up visibly..

THUS ALWAYS QT REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FISH LOOKS WHEN YOU PURCHASE.. JUST MY 2CENTS AND HUNDRED OF DOLLARS WORTH OF FISH

 

[tastyfish]

Yep.. the DT was hypo for 10 -12 months.. lost some fish but some made it.. cleaned up all my problem algea and other bad stuff.. but starting over... fish all go through QT before going in the DT... I have changed my opinion on how to QT but just my way.. I am going back to Copper Safe as a first stage .. then Prazi second. phase after copper..

I got a fish from a supplier.. i will leave their name out... i put it in my QT to wait and see how it was doing.. problem is it had ick that could not be seen as it was in the gills. communicated and infested the rest of the QT tanking out a nice wrasse or two with it.

I had thought this supplier always QT the fish in copper ect.. found out that is not how they do it.. they only treat if there is a visible sigh of issues over a few days or week or two of watching.. so as we know ICK and other badies do not show up visibly..

THUS ALWAYS QT REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FISH LOOKS WHEN YOU PURCHASE.. JUST MY 2CENTS AND HUNDRED OF DOLLARS WORTH OF FISH

It's adding up to Oodinium (velvet) for me or another sudden factor such as virus or ammonia. Hypo will have no effect on velvet and can also impact bacterial filtration.

Most wholesalers run very low levels of copper in their systems. This is more to ******/control any parasites and stop them spreading in the short time the fish are there. They also run massive banks of high power UV, so not comparable with a hobbyist's set up.

I have recently started sourcing my livestock from a supplier who is over an hour and a half's drive from me, but who routinely treats and QT's all his fish with Prazinqitel and high levels of copper, with decent levels also running in his fish display systems.

I QT all the same, but it gives some confidence. Nothing enters my tank now without a full prophylactic QT treatment. I had one wipeout where I didn't think I needed to QT (when starting out) and a recent one where I disregarded my golden rule for that one last fish when my QT wasn't ready.

Hard lessons.

 

[chicago]

Hard Lessons yep.. that is right on target.. right now i am back to using copper safe.. I am using Chemets .. chemetrics test.. i like it for the the way you can save yesterdays test results.. its in a vial sample.. Also pretty easy to read.. price at first but then again how much do we spend on the hobby.?