ID needed

[Sashaka]

As some of you know, I've been fighting slime or dinos for some time. Black out has not helped; water changes do not phase it; sucking out as much as I can get out during water changes helps (comes off rocks easily), but the #@#! grows quickly and covers the whole tank in one week. I purchased a microscope to try and ID, but I really don't know what I'm looking at, so I could use some help.
Each picture below shows progressive magnification. Sorry about the quality of pics. I'm not very good with this thing yet. I think the single round bug is a dino, but so far it's the only one I saw in the few samples I looked at. Where there's one, I'm sure there's more. Is the coiled stings plant algae, bacteria, or slime? The coiled mass is what I think is the problem. None of the picks have stain. One pic shows a side of my tank two days after a cleaning and water change. Bubbles form in the mess, so I thought it was dinos, but now I'm not so sure. Any ideas?

 

[Ron Reefman]

I can't help with the ID. I've never looked through a microscope at algae or bacteria. I think slime is either algae or bacteria or both, but not a separate choice.

I understand the black out didn't help. I'd like to ask how long you did the black out and did you block light from getting into the tank through the glass?

OK, here is another theory I have used a few times. Don't go for the black out which is hard on corals after a few days. If you have an led fixture, run it with just blue leds. The corals will react like it's a normal day and polyp out just fine and happy. The hope (goal) is that if your 'slime' is an algae, it uses red/yellow spectrum and will starve. I did this to my 120g DT for 2 weeks. The corals, fish and other inverts were absolutely fine at the end, but my algae issue was gone. I did have to repeat the process a second time a couple of weeks later, but in the end, it worked.

Now this is just a anecdotal incident based on my experience. I'm not claiming this works all the time or even that the science and biology are 100% accurate. But at the very least, IMHO, it's not harmful.

If, on the other hand, your 'slime' is a bacteria, this may have no effect because bacteria are not photosynthetic.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Looks like cyanobacteria from the pictures. Can it be easily moved/removed with a turkey baster or by blasting it with a powerhead? If so, it is probably cyanobacteria.

In the past, I've dosed erythromycin to kill the cyano, which it certainly does, but I never liked using the antibiotics on a reef tank. I recently had a cyano outbreak, and in the last couple of years I intermittently use hydrogen peroxide to knock down the cyanobacteria.

I googled what cyano looks like under a microscope, and while it was not 100% conclusive to me, the pictures did look like your microscope shots.

I assume we're talking about all of the maroon/purple stuff in your tank? I probably should've asked that question up front.

 

[Sashaka]

Thank you Ron Reefman and AllSignsPointToFish for your response. I took a few more pictures this morning before work and have posted them. These are untouched except for the zooming in. The color is pretty much redish pink or maroon colored. It does not stick firmly to the rock. It will blow off and most of it is easily sucked out. Ron Reefman, I don't have corals in that 180 gal tank. It's a FOWLR, so I don't have to worry about stressing them. My black out was three days but the tank was not wrapped for a total black out. Ambient light from the room did enter the tank during the day; however, it was just the light from the window in the room as the ceiling light was left off. You suggested several weeks of black out, so maybe I didn't keep tank light out long enough.

AlSignsPointToFish, you might be right. I could be dealing with cyano bacteria. I dosed the tank with CP a few months back because I couldn't catch a sick fish. I finally gave up trying to catch the fish and dosed the whole tank. I believe that was the cause of the outbreak. I disrupted the delicate balance of my tank. My sister suffered a stroke at the time and I just didn't have the time to keep trying to catch the fish. I took the easy way out at the time, but I'm paying for it now. I expect if I dose with antibiotics, I will just end up with a similar problem as the tank recycles again. I did expected a problem after dosing with the CP, but not one I couldn't handle with regular water changes. In my experience, Cyano usually clears up when water quality gets better and the tank ages a bit. Another reason I am not sure about cyano as an ID is because of all the bubbles the stuff creates, and it started on the rocks and not the sand bed. Any cyano I've had before has always started (and usually stayed) on the sand bed. I've gone through slight cyano issues when starting up a new tank before, but this is MUCH worse than anything I've experienced before. It just multiplies so fast that by the end of the week the tank is literally covered with a thick muck. If I pull a rock or decoration out and rinse it in fresh water, I can usually get a few more days of clean before the muck covers it, but it too eventually regrows the reddish slime within a week's time. By Saturday when I do tank maintenance, the muck in the pictures below will be all over everything in the tank. I will not be able to see rocks or decorations at all. It's that bad.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I'm sorry to hear about all of the hardship you've had to endure

In my opinion, that looks exactly like cyanobacteria...bubbles included. Do you think you could manage trying to dose peroxide? It's cheap, easy, and fairly gentle to most things in a tank other than cyanobacteria.

 

[Sashaka]

After doing a bit more research, I came across the following two sites:
https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-1500266-microscopic-view-spirulina-sp-blue-green-algae and
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Spirulina

I think I've found an ID. What do you all think? @twilliard, I found an older R2R thread started by you. What do you think? Is the problem in my tank "mad" Spirulina? I am working my way through your old thread now and looking for a possible course of action to control this plague.

BTW, the main source of food for my fish is fresh/frozen seafood that I buy from the supermarket. This seems to fall in with your suggestion that Spirulina might be introduced or encourage to grow from feeding fresh seafood. I'm also looking for answers to figure out if this strain is toxic to my fish if eaten. I know some strains of cyano can be toxic. From my pics, can you tell if I have the "safe" kind or the "toxic" kind?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I've finished reading through your thread @twilliard. I didn't find a course of action posted to beat spirulina. Any advice?

 

[Sashaka]

Do you think you could manage trying to dose peroxide?

Thank you for your kind thoughts. Trouble they say comes in threes. I'm waiting for the floor to fall out from under me. LOL Seriously though, I've dipped corals but never dosed a tank with peroxide before. What do you recommend?

BTW, I ordered DinoXal last week. I thought I had dinos. Dang! The stuff is shipped from overseas as we cannot get it here in the USA, so it was pretty expensive. I wish I'd posted this thread several weeks ago. I don't think the DinoXal will work on Spirulina, which seems to be a form of cyano. Should I try it?

 

[Sashaka]

@AllSignsPointToFish, After much research, I've discovered a common consensus that hydrogen peroxide will not work on Spirulina.

Most sites advise doing a hydrogen peroxide test. If water doesn't turn to a pink tint after doing a hydrogen peroxide test on small amount of the materia, it's probably Spirulina, not Cyanobacteria, and peroxide dosing will not kill Spirulina. Chemi clean (according to my research) is the only known remedy to kill Spirulina. Your suggestion to try hydrogen peroxide was worth looking into as it could have saved me a lot of headache, but unfortunately my luck is not that great.

As microscopic diagnosis confirmed Spirulina, I will forgo the hydrogen peroxide test and move right to the Chemi Clean treatment, unless you or others know of another safe, cheap, easy answer for Spirulina that I've missed?

Thanks for your suggestion. At least I learned how to treat Cyano cheaply and easily if I ever get an outbreak of it, and continued knowledge in this hobby is always a plus!

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

@AllSignsPointToFish, After much research, I've discovered a common consensus that hydrogen peroxide will not work on Spirulina.

Most sites advise doing a hydrogen peroxide test. If water doesn't turn to a pink tint after doing a hydrogen peroxide test on small amount of the materia, it's probably Spirulina, not Cyanobacteria, and peroxide dosing will not kill Spirulina. Chemi clean (according to my research) is the only known remedy to kill Spirulina. Your suggestion to try hydrogen peroxide was worth looking into as it could have saved me a lot of headache, but unfortunately my luck is not that great.

As microscopic diagnosis confirmed Spirulina, I will forgo the hydrogen peroxide test and move right to the Chemi Clean treatment, unless you or others know of another safe, cheap, easy answer for Spirulina that I've missed?

Thanks for your suggestion. At least I learned how to treat Cyano cheaply and easily if I ever get an outbreak of it, and continued knowledge in this hobby is always a plus!

Wow, that stinks. I was hoping you'd be able to treat it with peroxide! I'm still amazed at how effective it seems to be on cyanobacteria yet gentle on most everything thing else in my tank.

I'm glad you did the test. While it wouldn't have helped in your situation, I am positive it wouldn't have hurt anything else, either

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I wonder if spirulina is susceptible to erythromycin? I know you can get it at a lot of fish stores, and I've used it in the past with success (but that was on what I believe was cyanobacteria).

The ChemiClean is probably cheaper, though. Heck, it might even be an erythromycin formulation!

 

[Sashaka]

I wonder if spirulina is susceptible to erythromycin? I know you can get it at a lot of fish stores, and I've used it in the past with success (but that was on what I believe was cyanobacteria).

The ChemiClean is probably cheaper, though. Heck, it might even be an erythromycin formulation!

I don't know if it's susceptible to erythromycin, but I know CP treatment put a big dent in it...at least for awhile. ChemiClean packaging states "Contains no phosphate, algaixides, or erythromycin succate" and "Completely safe for all fish, corals, invertebrates, and nitrifying bacteria" when used as directed, so my guess is that it's probably safer to use in the MD than erythromycin or CP, which kills beneficial bacteria along with the nasties. I've got a bad outbreak going on, so I'll let everyone here know how well the ChemiClean works for me and if there are any issues that crop up after using it.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I don't know if it's susceptible to erythromycin, but I know CP treatment put a big dent in it...at least for awhile. ChemiClean packaging states "Contains no phosphate, algaixides, or erythromycin succate" and "Completely safe for all fish, corals, invertebrates, and nitrifying bacteria" when used as directed, so my guess is that it's probably safer to use in the MD than erythromycin or CP, which kills beneficial bacteria along with the nasties. I've got a bad outbreak going on, so I'll let everyone here know how well the ChemiClean works for me and if there are any issues that crop up after using it.

Well, I've used erythromycin in my old tank with no issues as long as you dose properly. I realize some beneficial bacteria may be killed, but I never saw an ammonia spike or any indications of a negative impact to overall reef health. For what that's worth

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

ChemiClean packaging states "Contains no phosphate, algaixides, or erythromycin succate"

See, I think this is where they get you. Because they state the product contains no "erythromycin succate[sic]", it's easy to assume that the product contains no erythromycin. However, there are several erythromycin formulations that do not contain ethylsuccinate that are likely to be effective against cyanobacteria. While they technically didn't lie, they also allow our assumptions to protect their product formulation

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

You know, I also looked back at your pictures and noticed what appeared to be an open window near the tank (looked like a reflection). Is that the case? If so, the outside lighting can encourage growth of undesirable algae. Just a thought.

 

[Sashaka]

Well, I've used erythromycin in my old tank with no issues as long as you dose properly. I realize some beneficial bacteria may be killed, but I never saw an ammonia spike or any indications of a negative impact to overall reef health. For what that's worth

I know what I'll try next if the Chemiclean does not do the trick! Thank you for the suggestion!

there are several erythromycin formulations that do not contain ethylsuccinate that are likely to be effective against cyanobacteria.

I knew this...read it somewhere along the way...and I realize that any chemical added to our tanks can and will disrupt the delicate balance of our marine tanks pretty much regardless of what a company professes about their product. I guess I figured that with the outbreak that I've been fighting for months now that the tank's balance is already out of kilter. I can't do much worse to it by adding the ChemiClean.

You know, I also looked back at your pictures and noticed what appeared to be an open window near the tank (looked like a reflection). Is that the case? If so, the outside lighting can encourage growth of undesirable algae. Just a thought.

There is a window reflecting in the picture on the tank. No direct sunlight comes in through that window as it's facing on the south side of the house, but I'm sure the indirect light could be a factor. Usually, GHA rears it's ugly head when there is too much light. I really don't get much of that at all. Still, I may have to get some dark curtains.

I did read somewhere that artificial decorations seem to have more problems as far as cyano and other nuisance algae and bacteria blooms. This FOWLR tank has a combination of live rock and artificial decorations. The plan was always to slowly bring in more live rock and remove the artificial decorations. I just like the color the artificial pieces bring to the tank, so I ended up keeping it. Maybe I should rethink this decision.