ID Please

[Ishy]

Hi, we have a few fish on their last tank transfer before going into our new tank upgrade display. We have been managing what we assume to be a very mild strain of Ich for the last 12 months and wanted to make sure all the fish are ok before going into the new tank.
There are two clowns in the same transfer tank which had a couple of spots and some neon gobies that also had a few spots, these are all clear but The Randalls Goby has a frayed tail fin and the Chalk Goby has a white shadow on his tail fin.
All the above fish have gone through transfer together and have also been treated with Paraguard.
Can anyone throw any light on this and suggest a way forward please.
Thank's.

 

[Brew12]

I'm thinking they may be flukes. They are hard to identify without doing a fresh water dip. They are normally fairly translucent in salt water and turn white during the FW dip.

 

[Ishy]

Thank's, we were going to do a couple of Prazi treatments during transfer but assumed the Paraguard would do the job. They were treated for Flukes with Prazi and Flukesolve (uk brand) when they were in the display so assumed it wasn't really Flukes.

Some more information as we have the remaining fish from the old display to get through transfer yet but we don't know what we are treating. Please take a look at the photos,

Orange Shoulder tang- when watching the fish you cannot see any spots until he bends into light then you can see he is almost
covered with small lumps and spots and something like powder, smaller than any ich we have seen.
Clownfish take a look on her black area you can see spots, these have gone in the Tank transfer
Mimic tang- again you cannot see these from a distance but its the same as the Orange shoulder, interesting how they show up on a photo under the blues as black spots ( not black in real life)
Spots have been present and have gotten worse for the last 10 weeks whilst this new tank build has been happening ( delayed causing us some issues)

Spots have gone from the neon gobys and clownfish during TTM so do you think seeing how the other fish are we should just treat for Flukes again in the Tank transfer ? Appreciate your input

 

[Brew12]

I wouldn't treat for flukes again without doing a FW dip to confirm. Visual confirmation of flukes is very challenging unless they are infesting the eyes.

I'm not sure what to make of these other pictures.

 

[Ishy]

So following on from the above, the Orange shoulder is now in a hospital tank with a see through back. This has enabled me to get a much better shot for diagnosis.

 

[Ishy]

Any advice would be appreciated thank;s

 

[drstardust]

What exactly is the timeline of the development of these symptoms on the orange shoulder tang? From the last picture it looks like velvet but that is not a disease that lasts 10 weeks and slowly gets worse. It's usually a very quick killer. Were the 10-week long symptoms identical to the current spots on that tang?

 

[Ishy]

This is what puzzles us, yes it looks like velvet but the timescale says it can't be. He has been like this for at least 10 weeks and one other yellow mimic tang shows the same symptoms.He is eating normally and flashing and you would struggle to see the spots with the naked eye.
We have had a couple of people over here looking at this suggesting mucos membrane problems? Hoping to do a skin scrape shortly to see what it looks like under a microscope, just not sur what to do at this point in time.

 

[drstardust]

That is certainly interesting. That sounds like a reasonable plan if you have the resources to do microscopic examination. I personally would empirically treat with copper in the hospital tank just in case. Or chloroquine phosphate if you can get a reliable source of that. I will tag some of the forum's disease experts for some additional opinions. @Humblefish @melypr1985 @4FordFamily

Best of luck and I will follow along with interest.

 

[Humblefish]

@Ishy I would use a FW dip as a diagnostic tool for this situation: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

If there is no effect on whatever this is, we can at least rule out worms from the equation.

 

[4FordFamily]

@Ishy I would use a FW dip as a diagnostic tool for this situation: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

If there is no effect on whatever this is, we can at least rule out worms from the equation.

Agree and my vote is that this is velvet based on the number of tiny spots

 

[Ishy]

Thank's for the replies, I agree this looks like velvet but can't see how this is possible given the timescale. He has no problem breathing and his appetite is good.
@Humblefish , I agree with your freshwater dip suggestion but we have a real problem doing this. A friend from an LFS is going to come and do a skin scrape for us (if I'm honest I have a problem with this as well) got the microscope all set up ready and he has the contacts with the experience to id the problem hopefully.
We'll keep you posted on what we find and hopefully put a photo up.

 

[Ishy]

Hi all
I wanted to just update you on this.
Skin scrape showed zero parasites also had a Vet Surgeon double check our slides under their microscope to be double sure.
So we let the Orange shoulder into the display he spent a short while rubbing on the sand. The following day he was a different fish in his behaviour and the look of his body. He looked like we do when we sun burn and the dark skin makes way for new skin, that kind of colour difference and more chilled. Hasn't rubbed since, not at all.

We have since suspected the pipework we used for the 600 litre holing system that they have been in during this time maybe causing a toxicity issue effecting the fish slime coat as the pipe inside smells of chemicals. Maybe bacteria has broken this down and exposed chemicals, who knows, we can't test for this but its the only thing we can think off . ICP Test was also clear.

Here is a slide picture of the mucus- boring because there's nothing to see.

 

[drstardust]

Hi all
I wanted to just update you on this.
Skin scrape showed zero parasites also had a Vet Surgeon double check our slides under their microscope to be double sure.
So we let the Orange shoulder into the display he spent a short while rubbing on the sand. The following day he was a different fish in his behaviour and the look of his body. He looked like we do when we sun burn and the dark skin makes way for new skin, that kind of colour difference and more chilled. Hasn't rubbed since, not at all.

We have since suspected the pipework we used for the 600 litre holing system that they have been in during this time maybe causing a toxicity issue effecting the fish slime coat as the pipe inside smells of chemicals. Maybe bacteria has broken this down and exposed chemicals, who knows, we can't test for this but its the only thing we can think off . ICP Test was also clear.

Here is a slide picture of the mucus- boring because there's nothing to see.

Fascinating!