Ideal Alk level relative to nitrates (nutrients)

[Charlie’s Frags]

I still say the water is being over stripped of ammonia/ammonium or a contamination. I don’t know when the alk swing paranoia started, but ten years ago I would test alk once a week and bring it from 8 to 12 in a matter of seconds and never lost a single acro. I’ve had an alk spike to 40 from a doser malfunction and only lost 1 frag out of 40-50 and even now my alk swings everyday 0.5-1.0 dKh just about everyday and still haven’t lost an acro. Maybe it’s more of an issue when no3/po4 is really low but I’m not sure. I routinely bring the alk up from 6 to 8.5-9 on my other 2 tanks and again, never had any death.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

No I did not calibrate the thermometer using the saline solution. But I figured out if it was really off by a huge margin it would have had a big impact on lps and all of my black widows as they sensitive to salinity swings.

All my all dosing is done at night or when lights are off. But dosing 8ml or 10 ml a day is not gonna make a huge impact.
Raising nitrates was done over like a week ago and not a month.
No other changes were made to the tank, no additive or salt change or anything. I dosed red sea ab+ for a few days at 1ml a day for a 85 gallon system then started noticing some very slight burnt tips on the acro colony so I stopped it ever since. No other new thing introduced to the system.

As for the salinity I don’t believe that’s the best way to think about it. Just because not all corals are showing issues doesn’t mean there isn’t one. I would highly recommend getting some calibration solution and double checking your salinity, it’s always a beneficial thing to do. As for the dosing I recommend splitting the dosing evenly throughout the day, it helps with stability. In my tank for example, my alkalinity is always highest at the end of the night before the lights come on and lowest just after the lights go off at night. If I dosed during the night only I would only exaggerate the swings while the corals use up all the alkalinity during the day and then much less at night compounded by the increase from dosing. And what I meant is that something could’ve happened a month ago but youre just seeing the impacts now and attributing them to the nitrates.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Also, if you are worried about your tank being starved I’d always recommend feeding more or adding more fish before dosing nitrates.

 

[Lovefish77]

As for the salinity I don’t believe that’s the best way to think about it. Just because not all corals are showing issues doesn’t mean there isn’t one. I would highly recommend getting some calibration solution and double checking your salinity, it’s always a beneficial thing to do. As for the dosing I recommend splitting the dosing evenly throughout the day, it helps with stability. In my tank for example, my alkalinity is always highest at the end of the night before the lights come on and lowest just after the lights go off at night. If I dosed during the night only I would only exaggerate the swings while the corals use up all the alkalinity during the day and then much less at night compounded by the increase from dosing. And what I meant is that something could’ve happened a month ago but youre just seeing the impacts now and attributing them to the nitrates.

Ok will get that solution.
So for all dosing you recommend doing it during photo period during the day and splitting each hour to be like 1ml? I can just my concern with very small doses the dosing head could overdose a little bit.

 

[Lovefish77]

Also, if you are worried about your tank being starved I’d always recommend feeding more or adding more fish before dosing nitrates.

I have 4 big tangs in a 75 and I feed a ton, fish are very fat. Want me get more fish even? I mean I always wanted a powder blue, maybe I can get one and some small fish too.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Ok will get that solution.
So for all dosing you recommend doing it during photo period during the day and splitting each hour to be like 1ml? I can just my concern with very small doses the dosing head could overdose a little bit.

I recommend splitting evenly however your doser will allow. If it can only do 1 ml per dose then do it 8 times per day spilt over 24 hours so basically 1 ml every 3 hours. Just have as many small doses per day as the doser allows. And I only say get more fish/feed more if you think your tank is starved. If you don’t have pale corals or slow death from the bottom up you probably don’t have a starved tank. No if you can accommodate more fish then I think you should feel free. Everyone loves getting another fish!

 

[Lovefish77]

I recommend splitting evenly however your doser will allow. If it can only do 1 ml per dose then do it 8 times per day spilt over 24 hours so basically 1 ml every 3 hours. Just have as many small doses per day as the doser allows. And I only say get more fish/feed more if you think your tank is starved. If you don’t have pale corals or slow death from the bottom up you probably don’t have a starved tank. No if you can accommodate more fish then I think you should feel free. Everyone loves getting another fish!

Thanks well I think my tank is starved based on nitrates test, however some argue that is testing residual nitrates after the tank processed the food intake. Even if that is true and with zero nitrates I have food in the tank for corals, I dont wanna live on the edge you know. So if I feed less for a few days or get busy things will start crashing because of very limited nutrients.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Thanks well I think my tank is starved based on nitrates test, however some argue that is testing residual nitrates after the tank processed the food intake. Even if that is true and with zero nitrates I have food in the tank for corals, I dont wanna live on the edge you know. So if I feed less for a few days or get busy things will start crashing because of very limited nutrients.

That’s absolutely right that the test kits are testing residuals. My tank happily runs at 0.2ppm nitrate (just barely any pink on the salifert test kit) but I feed a ton. Do you have an auto feeder? One of the best investments you can make for a reef tank.

 

[Lovefish77]

That’s absolutely right that the test kits are testing residuals. My tank happily runs at 0.2ppm nitrate (just barely any pink on the salifert test kit) but I feed a ton. Do you have an auto feeder? One of the best investments you can make for a reef tank.

Yes I have an auto feeder but pellets get swept away to overflow. Just to five you an idea of how much I feed:
- 1 sheet for nori like 8x9 inches - they say that is equivalent of 4 cubes
- pellets adding up to almost a tea spoon a day.
- 4 or 5 ml of acro power
- like 3 frozen cubes added to them a bunch of reefroids and more acropower. I think reefroids is giving me a vermita snail infestation as well.
- I feed the anemones like twice a week like 2 oz of raw very fishy stuff (secret sauce that what makes the black widows grow and split lol). Cut into small pieces and the powder from that stuff gets all over the tank.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Yes I have an auto feeder but pellets get swept away to overflow. Just to five you an idea of how much I feed:
- 1 sheet for nori like 8x9 inches - they say that is equivalent of 4 cubes
- pellets adding up to almost a tea spoon a day.
- 4 or 5 ml of acro power
- like 3 frozen cubes added to them a bunch of reefroids and more acropower. I think reefroids is giving me a vermita snail infestation as well.
- I feed the anemones like twice a week like 2 oz of raw very fishy stuff (secret sauce that what makes the black widows grow and split lol). Cut into small pieces and the powder from that stuff gets all over the tank.

As for the auto feeder I would play around with the placement so that the pellets don’t get sucked into the overflow. Pellets going into the overflow not only prevents your fish from eating them but can also build up in your filtration and decay causing other issues. Sounds like you are feeding plenty and certainly not starving your tank. As you might have seen in my other thread, you are taking a much more wholesome approach to feeding your reef than just dosing nitrates. As I pointed out you can absolutely be successful with low residual nitrate and phosphate if you are feeding your reef well.

 

[Lovefish77]

As for the auto feeder I would play around with the placement so that the pellets don’t get sucked into the overflow. Pellets going into the overflow not only prevents your fish from eating them but can also build up in your filtration and decay causing other issues. Sounds like you are feeding plenty and certainly not starving your tank. As you might have seen in my other thread, you are taking a much more wholesome approach to feeding your reef than just dosing nitrates. As I pointed out you can absolutely be successful with low residual nitrate and phosphate if you are feeding your reef well.

I will try placement with feeder. But with covid quarantine and working from home I am able to space things a bit and feed throughout the day. When I used to work I used to dump everything when I came back from work. But again if I snooze or reduce feedings now or in the future I could starve the tank. So was thinking of very light nitrate dosing to compliment my feeding, that is the reason really.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I will try placement with feeder. But with covid quarantine and working from home I am able to space things a bit and feed throughout the day. When I used to work I used to dump everything when I came back from work. But again if I snooze or reduce feedings now or in the future I could starve the tank. So was thinking of very light nitrate dosing to compliment my feeding, that is the reason really.

Just to share my regimen with you and show you what works for me, I feed my reef 4 times per day with the auto feeder and then only once at night with a mix of around 6 different frozen foods, reef roids, spirulina, and aminos. I can also go away for days with just the auto feeder with no impacts on my corals.

 

[rlman41299]

I'm just gonna throw this out there but have you considered sending a sample for an ICP test? I have had a similar issue a while back wherein everything I thought was perfect but started to see colonies shedding tissues. Sent a sample of my water to ATI for icp test and my K+ was over 400 (460 to be exact) and iodine was over 1ppm. After I corrected those everything came back to normal. Where did I get the high K+? I am not sure but sending a sample of my water to be tested surely helped me.

 

[Lovefish77]

I'm just gonna throw this out there but have you considered sending a sample for an ICP test? I have had a similar issue a while back wherein everything I thought was perfect but started to see colonies shedding tissues. Sent a sample of my water to ATI for icp test and my K+ was over 400 (460 to be exact) and iodine was over 1ppm. After I corrected those everything came back to normal. Where did I get the high K+? I am not sure but sending a sample of my water to be tested surely helped me.

I can probably buy that $50 one time test and do it.
I dosed potassium nitrate from stump remover sparingly before to get nitrates to 2ppm, that could affect my K.
For iodine I think some of the nori sheets we feed has a lot of kelp which is really heavy in iodine, just a guess but that could be it.

Just interested in how you got your k and iodine levels back to normal?

 

[rlman41299]

I did 30g water change 3x in a week. So pretty much every other day but made sure the salinity and temp are the same or close to it to avoid more stress to the colonies. But before that I have stopped dosing red sea abcd stuff when I sent the sample which helped a bit and tested my K+ with salifert as soon as I got the result of my K from ATI. That served as my baseline. Right now my K is at 410 which is acceptable and still not dosing red sea A & B. You know what you could get away with just a salifert test for K for like $29?

 

[rlman41299]

Oh and as for nitrates I dose sodium nitrate food grade. Tried stump remover before and never had good result from it. Some reefers were successful but not me. Just something to think about if you wanna switch nitrate dosing. Good luck to you. Hope you find the culprit.

 

[Lovefish77]

I did 30g water change 3x in a week. So pretty much every other day but made sure the salinity and temp are the same or close to it to avoid more stress to the colonies. But before that I have stopped dosing red sea abcd stuff when I sent the sample which helped a bit and tested my K+ with salifert as soon as I got the result of my K from ATI. That served as my baseline. Right now my K is at 410 which is acceptable and still not dosing red sea A & B. You know what you could get away with just a salifert test for K for like $29?

Yes but with icp you are getting a test for everything and not just K

 

[Lovefish77]

Oh and as for nitrates I dose sodium nitrate food grade. Tried stump remover before and never had good result from it. Some reefers were successful but not me. Just something to think about if you wanna switch nitrate dosing. Good luck to you. Hope you find the culprit.

Agree tree stump pptassium nitrate was crap. This is the food grade I tried this time. Some reviewer noted using it in a reef tank even lol

 

[Perry]

My problem with targets/ via testing... A target implies a sweet spot, so any drift from the said target, often leads a hobbyist to correct. Sometimes we are making multiple changes, often unaware of how that impacts other variables. Choosing a salt can truly be your best friend, and a staple for new tanks. So choose a salt that is quite close to your desired parameters. Small changes, insignificant, but large ones, when something seems off, could possibly save the tank, through dilution. Let the salt mix sort of dictate parameters.
Next, a new tank with dead rock vs. a mature tank using ocean rock, cannot be compared from one hobbyist to another. So choose info source from successful tanks, that are similar in nature, as this topic is real. A mature tank, with worms, tunicates, dusters, pods, stars, snails, sponges, etc, are able to keep nutrients in water column low, simply through feeding off of available nutrients. Does that mean the test kit is right, not necessarily, as the throughput of nutrients is much higher, and natural spawnings and micro life adds food source to corals, and fish. Ever witness a stomatella spawn, your acros will go bonkers. In this scenario, higher nutrient import does not elevate testable nutrients, therefore you are ULN, and typically algae is limited, as they are outcompeted for nutrients by micro-life, and corals.
A dry rock tank is trickier, as po4 is usually binded, and as it leaches, it forms on rocks, as well as in the water column. So, its hard to want to feed, as you fuel algae, and unlocking binded po4 takes time, as micro-life cannot process, and inbound corals loose the nutrient battle, it is of my belief that bacteria and time are key. That said, if I did it all over again with dry rock, I would probably treat the rock by cycling in saltwater, using bacteria dosing from day 1. I would be much more patient, and seed with detrivore kits, pods, live sand from hobbyists tanks, rubble, etc.
So, I think the key is understanding nutrient processing, more than available nutrients. What's in the tank? What are you feeding? Yes, keeping testable nutrients in this scenario is likely key, as we need to ensure corals, developing micro-life and bacteria have available foods, and not just being consumed by dry rock, or algae forming on it.
My best not so analytical analogy

 

[Lovefish77]

I still say the water is being over stripped of ammonia/ammonium or a contamination. I don’t know when the alk swing paranoia started, but ten years ago I would test alk once a week and bring it from 8 to 12 in a matter of seconds and never lost a single acro. I’ve had an alk spike to 40 from a doser malfunction and only lost 1 frag out of 40-50 and even now my alk swings everyday 0.5-1.0 dKh just about everyday and still haven’t lost an acro. Maybe it’s more of an issue when no3/po4 is really low but I’m not sure. I routinely bring the alk up from 6 to 8.5-9 on my other 2 tanks and again, never had any death.

I personally think all swing are more of an issue in low nutrients, I know others would disagree.