Indonesia Situation

[Huskymaniac]

@PacificEastAquaculture some vendors still look like they are pushing out Maricultured Indonesia Acros. Was curious if these were just overstocked items or if there was some other way they are getting them. Do you think any other indopacific islands will eventually get into mari and aquaculture. I am suprised there hasn't been a huge uptake as it seems the dollar potential for some of these countries is enormous.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

@PacificEastAquaculture some vendors still look like they are pushing out Maricultured Indonesia Acros. Was curious if these were just overstocked items or if there was some other way they are getting them. Do you think any other indopacific islands will eventually get into mari and aquaculture. I am suprised there hasn't been a huge uptake as it seems the dollar potential for some of these countries is enormous.

I am unaware as to where mariculture corals might be coming from now. There had been a rumor a few weeks ago that a Bali exporter had snuck some in with fish shipment since fish exports are still allowed, but I have no confirmation or personal knowledge of anything like that going on and if someone did that it would be a risk in Indonesia and gigantic risk importing into the US with certain prison time if caught. Coral smuggling is very much aggressively prosecuted and results in federal prison time.

 

[oddomatic]

@PacificEastAquaculture How often are these meetings taking place in Indonesia? I understand updates on this thread are provided as they become available, but are there any significant upcoming meeting dates that could finally spell true answers to all of the conjecture?

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

@PacificEastAquaculture How often are these meetings taking place in Indonesia? I understand updates on this thread are provided as they become available, but are there any significant upcoming meeting dates that could finally spell true answers to all of the conjecture?

Meetings happened regularly, but true facts from those are near impossible to obtain though. One such meeting happened yesterday and my inboxes have been on fire since that a decision has been reached, but I don't have firm confirmation yet.

 

[oddomatic]

Meetings happened regularly, but true facts from those are near impossible to obtain though. One such meeting happened yesterday and my inboxes have been on fire since that a decision has been reached, but I don't have firm confirmation yet.

Is the unsubstantiated decision you speak of, the same that you mentioned in your post earlier today regarding ending exports all together?

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Is the unsubstantiated decision you speak of, the same that you mentioned in your post earlier today regarding ending exports all together?

That my friend is the magic question. Won't know anything until confirmed. Indonesia is 12 hours ahead so we have a wait. So many rumors so many times that I don't believe anyone until we actually have an official statement issued and we have nothing so far, so I wouldn't get too worked up just yet.

 

[oddomatic]

@PacificEastAquaculture Not to spread further speculation, but on a side note, I had heard something interesting that exports were destined to resume for 2 months beginning late October/early November only to accommodate the remainder of this years CITES. Then the ban would be placed back on again until sometime in February, whereby all exports going forward would be tagged mariculture pieces... Not sure of the credibility of the source, but I at least wanted to share.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

@PacificEastAquaculture Not to spread further speculation, but on a side note, I had heard something interesting that exports were destined to resume for 2 months beginning late October/early November only to accommodate the remainder of this years CITES. Then the ban would be placed back on again until sometime in February, whereby all exports going forward would be tagged mariculture pieces... Not sure of the credibility of the source, but I at least wanted to share.

All kinds of speculation. For sure, we are dealing with egos, politics, and a battle between cultured vs. wild. Wild CITES vs. cultured CITES. One government agency vs. another. Folks jockeying for position. In the meantime we get caught in the squeeze. Once I hear something definitive I'll let you know.

 

[oddomatic]

All kinds of speculation. For sure, we are dealing with egos, politics, and a battle between cultured vs. wild. Wild CITES vs. cultured CITES. One government agency vs. another. Folks jockeying for position. In the meantime we get caught in the squeeze. Once I hear something definitive I'll let you know.

Thank you.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

In the meantime we are happily growing corals in our facility. And, running a Labor Day Sale too. So check us out here:
https://pacificeastaquaculture.com/collections/wysiwyg-frags-for-reef-aquariums

 

[shred5]

@PacificEastAquaculture some vendors still look like they are pushing out Maricultured Indonesia Acros. Was curious if these were just overstocked items or if there was some other way they are getting them. Do you think any other indopacific islands will eventually get into mari and aquaculture. I am suprised there hasn't been a huge uptake as it seems the dollar potential for some of these countries is enormous.

I would be very careful of anyone selling them right now. It is possible they may have had them in quarantine for a while before selling them but most likely they are lying. I saw a whole bunch for sale at a inflated prices the other day. It is possible someone has a few left over that did not sell also but they would most likely be less desirable ones. We are talking wild or mariculture not frags. It is very possible to get frags.

Sad but lying about what a coral is in the hobby is very common.

I am not saying someone cant have some but buyer should beware.

 

[Lousybreed]

I think this issues has several root causes that have reached a perfect combination that resulted in a very bad outcome.

1) General pressure these coral exporting countries experience from other countries/organizations. Lets term this political pressure.
2) People do not understand the reef environment, thus it is easy to blame the aquarium industry. Lets term this public ignorance.
3) The industry really doesn't have standards. How does a facility get qualified as compliant for coral cultivation? Like others said, once the corals come into this country then there is no regulation at all. I work in the food industry. We must be certified to produce our products. The certification requires us to meet food safety and human safety standards. We must meet certain raw material requirements if we were to get certified as vegan or kosher for example. Lets term this lack of industry standards and alignment.
4) We do not have a powerful "team" that represents us during these discussions. We do not have a team that is actively working with Australia to ensure this doesnt happen there. We need a team that can provide data on our assumptions about our hobby. We need a unified team that is PROACTIVE. All we are doing is trying to fix stuff that has already happened. I am certain that when these talks began, the governments invited all sorts of commercial fishing lobbyists, the tourism industry, etc. Who was left out, we were. And what got banned? Yeah our industry. You could argue that the coral reef diving industry is far more destructive than ours.....but I bet they didnt even have to switch to safe sunscreens.....see the trend? Let's term this: no representation when it counts
5) Bad PR stories such as all those dead yellow tangs, there are probably alot of bad people that were collecting corals in the worst imaginable way. Let's term this: poor brand management. Walt was a shining example of doing things right and even he got completely shunned in this process. Hell he even educated the kids on his farm for free.....

Add all this up and I am very concerned about the future of our industry. No collective voice, no standards, no public education, no risk management, and a few very bad actors in our industry. I actually pose the opposite question: base on our complete lack of a unified voice and vision: how did anyone actually think we had a chance long term?

Before you flame me, I ask you to really think about my message. I am coming from a point of objectivity and I have compared it to other industries to see what methods and tools they have used to manage risk.

And hold on to your LPS, I guess we have a couple more years until Australia shuts its doors too.

Luca

 

[shred5]

All kinds of speculation. For sure, we are dealing with egos, politics, and a battle between cultured vs. wild. Wild CITES vs. cultured CITES. One government agency vs. another. Folks jockeying for position. In the meantime we get caught in the squeeze. Once I hear something definitive I'll let you know.

I think this issues has several root causes that have reached a perfect combination that resulted in a very bad outcome.

1) General pressure these coral exporting countries experience from other countries/organizations. Lets term this political pressure.
2) People do not understand the reef environment, thus it is easy to blame the aquarium industry. Lets term this public ignorance.
3) The industry really doesn't have standards. How does a facility get qualified as compliant for coral cultivation? Like others said, once the corals come into this country then there is no regulation at all. I work in the food industry. We must be certified to produce our products. The certification requires us to meet food safety and human safety standards. We must meet certain raw material requirements if we were to get certified as vegan or kosher for example. Lets term this lack of industry standards and alignment.
4) We do not have a powerful "team" that represents us during these discussions. We do not have a team that is actively working with Australia to ensure this doesnt happen there. We need a team that can provide data on our assumptions about our hobby. We need a unified team that is PROACTIVE. All we are doing is trying to fix stuff that has already happened. I am certain that when these talks began, the governments invited all sorts of commercial fishing lobbyists, the tourism industry, etc. Who was left out, we were. And what got banned? Yeah our industry. You could argue that the coral reef diving industry is far more destructive than ours.....but I bet they didnt even have to switch to safe sunscreens.....see the trend? Let's term this: no representation when it counts
5) Bad PR stories such as all those dead yellow tangs, there are probably alot of bad people that were collecting corals in the worst imaginable way. Let's term this: poor brand management. Walt was a shining example of doing things right and even he got completely shunned in this process. Hell he even educated the kids on his farm for free.....

Add all this up and I am very concerned about the future of our industry. No collective voice, no standards, no public education, no risk management, and a few very bad actors in our industry. I actually pose the opposite question: base on our complete lack of a unified voice and vision: how did anyone actually think we had a chance long term?

Before you flame me, I ask you to really think about my message. I am coming from a point of objectivity and I have compared it to other industries to see what methods and tools they have used to manage risk.

And hold on to your LPS, I guess we have a couple more years until Australia shuts its doors too.

Luca

Nope I think you hit the nail on the head pretty much.

One thing people do not discuss and it may not be the case in Indonesia is these organizations against the hobby also grease the right palms and have the money to do so.

You know everyone seems bent over Indonesia but what happens with more fish bans. We are no where even close to where we are on the coral propagation front. Coral propagation could be ramped pretty easy. Fish we are many years away and allot we will never be able to breed in any quantity. Who wants corals with few fish available. I think the fish front is more scary. We still can mainly only do clowns and handful of gobies in any quantity.

Edit: I meant it may not be the case above.

 

[Brian1f1]

So if we don’t have an effective advocacy group why don’t we make one? Easier said then done, but better to try rather than just let it go, right? I’m thinking of something in the model of a professional organization, like the APA for psychologists, or the AMA for medical doctors. Basically, it’d be voluntary, but not free, but membership could have benefits. Anyway, just a thought.

Also, I’m trying to hold on to my LPS, but they don’t always cooperate! I’m really really hoping my Aussie gold torch splits soon so I can frag it and get a head in a separate system for safe keeping (is that crazy?)!

 

[shred5]

So if we don’t have an effective advocacy group why don’t we make one? Easier said then done, but better to try rather than just let it go, right? I’m thinking of something in the model of a professional organization, like the APA for psychologists, or the AMA for medical doctors. Basically, it’d be voluntary, but not free, but membership could have benefits. Anyway, just a thought.

Also, I’m trying to hold on to my LPS, but they don’t always cooperate! I’m really really hoping my Aussie gold torch splits soon so I can frag it and get a head in a separate system for safe keeping (is that crazy?)!

It has been tried.
I do not want to sound like a jerk here.

Fist off most of the hobby does not even know about these bans. Very small percentage uses the forums and less than before. Even those who do, how many even read these threads and know about it?

Another part could care less if the hobby is gone tomorrow.

Some would rather spend money on their tanks than on some organization.

Another part thinks this is just another ban and another place will just open up like has happened before. These bans are much bigger than before and there aint much left to open anymore. There are some who think Fiji and Indonesia are just a island and do not realize these are large areas and not just a single island.

Also some companies that sell frags think the bans on coral are great for them. They do not understand some include fish or eventually will and if you do not draw the line somewhere its over. These frag coral vendors will be out of business without fish. Once coral is banned they will go after fish. Not only that the exporters rely on both so without coral they need to raise prices on fish. The hobby is so far away from having enough fish. Honestly If I could only have expensive clowns or the prices got to high on fish I might switch to freshwater and I have been in this hobby longer than most.


Another part thinks we should be banned. This is the one that bothers me because it does not matter if we collect or not it wont save the reefs. Just taking one less trip a week in your car would do more to save the reefs but these people do not think twice about that.

Most do not get that these bans right now just make the situation worse. Hawaii ban as is goes into effect will force us to collect fish from places farther away causing more deaths.
For corals and fish it means more collecting from areas with less desirable collecting practices.

Do not get me wrong there are allot of good people in this hobby and the percentage of the last few examples are small but there is a large percentage that does not know about it.

This is not just here either the hobby is worldwide and these bans effect the hobby worldwide.

The other issue is who do you get and who do you trust to make sure the money is used wisely and not against us. I have donated to save the reef organization and WRS did to when I was apart of them. You just got to make sure these are not the same people trying to get us shut down.

It needs to start at those who stand to loose the most and that is the manufacturers, coral vendors, wholesalers, local fish stores, etc. I am just using names here and not picking on any one but companies like Ecotech, Neptune, Tunze, even R2r etc. What will they do if the hobby is chopped in 1/2 or more?

I am not saying it can not be done there just is allot of hurdles.

The hobby needs to change too and be more responsible. We need better shipping so there is less deaths. Better handling, better facilities. It starts at home in how we care about our fish and coral.The word needs to be spread.

I am not saying either that some stuff should not be banned or regulated but just banning Fiji, Indonesia, Hawaii on everything is just bad.

I have been in the reef hobby 30+ years and longer saltwater. I did fresh water long before that too. Sometimes lately I feel like throwing my arms in the air and saying uncle and moving to fresh. It is depressing to see what is happening to the hobby and see people who just do not get it. It has to be even harder for people like Dr Mac and Walt Smith who made it their work and life and do allot of good in return to the hobby and the reefs.

 

[reefwiser]

There has already been formed an industry group years ago to battle this kind of situation. They problem is they could not get their act together. Way to much drama and no action.
Its just like banning cyanide collection I remember at MACNA 3 a lady came and talked about them stopping that collection. An they are STILL collecting with cyanide today.
People need to get serious about this situation it is not going away and we will not be able to frag our way out of it .

 

[oddomatic]

It has been tried.
I do not want to sound like a jerk here.

Fist off most of the hobby does not even know about these bans. Very small percentage uses the forums and less than before. Even those who do, how many even read these threads and know about it?

Another part could care less if the hobby is gone tomorrow.

Some would rather spend money on their tanks than on some organization.

Another part thinks this is just another ban and another place will just open up like has happened before. These bans are much bigger than before and there aint much left to open anymore. There are some who think Fiji and Indonesia are just a island and do not realize these are large areas and not just a single island.

Also some companies that sell frags think the bans on coral are great for them. They do not understand some include fish or eventually will and if you do not draw the line somewhere its over. These frag coral vendors will be out of business without fish. Once coral is banned they will go after fish. Not only that the exporters rely on both so without coral they need to raise prices on fish. The hobby is so far away from having enough fish. Honestly If I could only have expensive clowns or the prices got to high on fish I might switch to freshwater and I have been in this hobby longer than most.


Another part thinks we should be banned. This is the one that bothers me because it does not matter if we collect or not it wont save the reefs. Just taking one less trip a week in your car would do more to save the reefs but these people do not think twice about that.

Most do not get these bans right now just make it worse. Hawaii ban as is goes into effect will force us to collect fish from places farther away causing more deaths.
For corals and fish it means more collecting from areas with less desirable collecting practices.

Do not get me wrong there are allot of good people in this hobby and the percentage of the last few examples are small but there is a large percentage that does not know about it.

This is not just here either the hobby is worldwide and these bans effect the hobby worldwide.

The other issue is who and who do you trust to make sure the money is used wisely and not against us. I have donated to save the reef organization and WRS did to when I was apart of them. You just got to make sure these are not the same people trying to get us shut down.

It needs to start at those who stand to loose the most and that is the manufacturers, coral vendors, wholesalers, local fish stores, etc. I am just using names here and not picking on any one but companies like Ecotech, Neptune, Tunze, even R2r etc. What will they do if the hobby is chopped in 1/2 or more?

I am not saying it can not be done there just is allot of hurdles.

The hobby needs to change too and be more responsible. We need better shipping so there is less deaths. Better handling, better facilities. It starts at home in how we care about our fish and coral.The word needs to be spread.

I am not saying either that some stuff should not be banned or regulated but just banning Fiji, Indonesia, Hawaii on everything is just bad.

I have been in the reef hobby 30+ years and longer saltwater. I did fresh water long before that too. Sometimes lately I feel like throwing my arms in the air and saying uncle and moving to fresh. It is depressing to see what is happening to the hobby and see people who just do not get it. It has to be even harder for people like Dr Mac and Walt Smith who made it their work and life and do allot of good in return to the hobby and the reefs.

Well said. Basically everything I’ve been thinking.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

The main point of this thread is that the exporters association in Indonesia is not communicating with the world (even many of the exporters don't know what's really going on, so how could we here) and left on it's own the world will fill that void with rumors. It breeds an environment for scammers. While we here have redoubled our propagation efforts and moved on, over there they seem to not be able to tie their shoes. I've been involved in this industry since the 1960s and seen and heard so many pretenders, posers, and self righteous fools that I could write volumes. As in most industries, as a hobbyist or casual observer, you don't want to know or usually care how the sausage is made! It's like at a frag swap, "sir, how much is that pretty coral......OK, I'll take it" , no one really cares about the background story, and maybe we're all better off that way.

 

[oddomatic]

The main point of this thread is that the exporters association in Indonesia is not communicating with the world and left on it's own the world will fill that void with rumors. It breeds an environment for scammers. While we here have redoubled our propagation efforts and moved on, over there they seem to not be able to tie their shoes. I've been involved in this industry since the 1960s and seen and heard so many pretenders, posers, and self righteous fools that I could write volumes. As in most industries, as a hobbyist or casual observer, you don't want to know or usually care how the sausage is made! It's like at a frag swap, "sir, how much is that pretty coral......OK, I'll take it" , no one really cares about the background story, and maybe we're all better off that way.

Agreed. All of Indonesia’s trade agreements are a hot mess right now. The rupiah is suffering, and the only real progress they have had with trade for some time now was with Australia yesterday. They really can’t afford to be quiet any longer. It’s only a matter of time before all of their trade issues come to a head. In the end, I can’t see things staying as is. Even regarding a small part of their trade agreements such as coral exports. They are bleeding money. Things will have to change if the prime minister wants any real prosperity for their country. I really hope all of the trade meetings will end in a positive resolution for our hobby as well as the economy of their country and their reefs eco systems. Hope is a heck of a thing...

 

[pga7602]

I must have missed it somewhere, but why can't other countries like Vietnamese and Philippines compete to take over the gap?