Indonesia Situation

[oddomatic]

Would be surprised. Australia is really pro nature and animal life and I am sure they have done their homework. Would surprise me if they actually prefer this. The can essentially charge what they want at this point.

Very true. My concern of Australia following these other countries is really based more on monkey see monkey do and pressures from these bleeding heart organizations. I wish I could say my concern was logic driven.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I disagree strongly with mariculture bans. I don’t know how I feel about wild coral collection bans. Yes, I know the hobby’s impact is generally small. I also know it can be used to help protect the reefs and has sometimes been successful in doing just that.

I also feel it’s likely that destructive collection practices and smuggling are probably very common, and bans of exports, while a blunt tool, probably do dramatically reduce these bad acts. Maybe there are better tools for regulation, but can they be adequately implemented and enforced by small and poor governments? I don’t know. I also don’t know how the calculus of good vs. bad impacts comes out, and I doubt we have good numbers to work with to find out. The reefs are under full blown assault, dying at incredible rates, and not likely to survive this century in most locations.

I love the hobby. I have a few wild lps colonies. I love love my wild Aussie gold torch. My thoughts and feelings about the wild coral bans are very conflicted.

I am far from an expert, but i have never seen a simply instituting an export/import ban have a positive impact on a living species population. From sturgeon to elephants to sable.

The few success stories we have had with protecting a living species always turned the corner when multiple systems are in place.

Those 500 wildlife police are only effective if the 500,000 acres they are supposed to protect are also being watched and reported by the 30,000 people that live there.

You cant kill a market by making the supplier side illegal, you just create a poaching/black market industry more economical.

Huso huso has been listed on CITES since 1998, and is illegal to import in most counties as well as export from its home countries. Its population has continued to decline from poaching.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I may be showing my ignorance here, but why not set up an aquaculture facility on the east coast or off of south/central america? Why does it need to be in Indonesia or Fiji?

https://pacificeastaquaculture.com/pages/our-facility

 

[TheReefKeeper]

Well Written MAC I’ve been here with you since the beginning when you where in your basement took better part of 20 years it’s been talked about. The on shore farm is the only suitable supply of coals and it’s looking like whoever is holding coral better start setting up to prop if they don’t already. Mostly like yourself meaning the wholesalers in LA.

Really a sad Situation.

Btw it’s Chad from New Bedford I know u will reconize the screen name that’s where lol.

 

[Brian1f1]

I am far from an expert, but i have never seen a simply instituting an export/import ban have a positive impact on a living species population. From sturgeon to elephants to sable.

The few success stories we have had with protecting a living species always turned the corner when multiple systems are in place.

Those 500 wildlife police are only effective if the 500,000 acres they are supposed to protect are also being watched and reported by the 30,000 people that live there.

You cant kill a market by making the supplier side illegal, you just create a poaching/black market industry more economical.

Huso huso has been listed on CITES since 1998, and is illegal to import in most counties as well as export from its home countries. Its population has continued to decline from poaching.

I understand what your saying about export bans lack of apparent efficacy regarding some prominent wildlife. I’m not sure that they directly translate in all ways, or that there isn’t more than meets the eye. For example, the ivory export ban and the ban on killing elephants has not stopped the decline of the species but this doesn’t mean the bans haven’t slowed it (and could slow it with better enforcement). The unrelenting destruction and fragmentation of their environment means that any slow down or even a stoppage of the slaughter is not enough to stop the steady march towards extinction. Yes ivory prices are high, yes their is an illicit market, yes there is poaching, but if killing and export was legal the market would be simply be vastly larger, and even with lower prices it would almost certainly result in far more rapid extirpation.

Like elephants and most all other poster child endangered species coral is largely being destroyed by anthropogenic environmental changes/destruction. Taking wild colonies may not be driving the decline, but I question that it on balances helps it. Finally, a key difference between banning the collection and trade of items like ivory and caviar versus live coral is that it’s quite difficult to smuggle significant quantities of live coral, keep it alive, and get it into hobbyist tanks if no coral is being exported legally. The supply chain from start to finish is far too delicate. Some would get out, but far, far, less than it it were sanctioned and/or if it were a dry good. That’s my opinion anyway.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

As stated several times in this thread, the current bans have nothing to do with saving corals or reefs.

Take the example of the Yellow Tang and ban from Hawaii. Watch Bruce Carlson's video linked above in this thread, the fact is that their wild population has increased, the aquarium industry has no negative impact on that population. The ban is due to ill informed public pressure and most significantly--political correctness and posturing by politicians and an out of control judiciary.

Coral reefs are so vast that our industry has no impact and if sustainably harvested or responsible mariculture is done then it has a positive impact giving locals a source of income and greater awareness, respect, and responsibility for their natural resources.

I for one am not going to fight city hall, so to speak. The situation is what it is and will get worse as shown in this thread. I am and have been on board with sustainable mariculture and aquaculture for a long time, and put my money and time where my mouth is. A new mariculture project in a new source country has already been long underway so that we can continue to add to the genetic diversity of our existing broodstock. Also, I have made the move to sell only captive-bred tank-raised fish, no more wild collected. A beautiful marine aquarium can now be had with the offerings from the many hatcheries that currently exist. By next year tank-raised Yellow Tangs will be readily available, and the list of captive-bred fish will continue.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/an-aquaculture-paradise.458296/

 

[BradB]

As aquarium hobbyists and as those involved the industry, we tend to be poorly organized and too naive. We go about our daily activities somewhat oblivious to those among us that wish to stop our hobby and livelihood.

There is a well organized effort to stop imports of reef animals. It is gaining strength. It does not care about the facts or reality, nor cultured vs. wild collected. The so-called "not for profits" take in millions of dollars in donations and are able to influence public opinion with emotional pleas.

Here is Dr. Bruce Carlson's presentation from MACNA, note his conclusions at the end. This model of banning exports from the origin sources is being done, with some variations, in multiple locations. Unfortunately, due to the competitive nature of our industry and oversized egos that are common in our industry, we will likely never organize ourselves in time to tell the true story and prevent the demise of our industry. I for one am all about cultured livestock. I have gone to countries and put my money and efforts behind it and actually set up mariculture farms. However, how long will it be before all imports, wild or cultured are stopped into the US? Sure, facilities like mine and many others including hundreds of hobbyists are culturing lots of corals, but without any influx of other genetics I am unsure how affordable the hobby will become.

I don't deny being naive, but we are a long way away from the CIA shutting down people like me selling $5 frags out of my basement in Cleveland Ohio, regardless of whatever legislation is passed in the future. The reef hobby isn't going away, and it won't be more expensive or have fewer people participate. But we will have a tremendous loss of diversity, and it is going to hurt conservation efforts instead of helping. Even if we aren't organized, at a minimum we need to maintain a realistic view of the situation.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I don't deny being naive, but we are a long way away from the CIA shutting down people like me selling $5 frags out of my basement in Cleveland Ohio, regardless of whatever legislation is passed in the future. The reef hobby isn't going away, and it won't be more expensive or have fewer people participate. But we will have a tremendous loss of diversity, and it is going to hurt conservation efforts instead of helping. Even if we aren't organized, at a minimum we need to maintain a realistic view of the situation.

The CIA?? No one talking about stopping anyone from selling frags of corals we all grow at whatever price you wish. We sell lots of them every day.

 

[Brian1f1]

As stated several times in this thread, the current bans have nothing to do with saving corals or reefs.

Take the example of the Yellow Tang and ban from Hawaii. Watch Bruce Carlson's video linked above in this thread, the fact is that their wild population has increased, the aquarium industry has no negative impact on that population. The ban is due to ill informed public pressure and most significantly--political correctness and posturing by politicians and an out of control judiciary.

Coral reefs are so vast that our industry has no impact and if sustainably harvested or responsible mariculture is done then it has a positive impact giving locals a source of income and greater awareness, respect, and responsibility for their natural resources.

I for one am not going to fight city hall, so to speak. The situation is what it is and will get worse as shown in this thread. I am and have been on board with sustainable mariculture and aquaculture for a long time, and put my money and time where my mouth is. A new mariculture project in a new source country has already been long underway so that we can continue to add to the genetic diversity of our existing broodstock. Also, I have made the move to sell only captive-bred tank-raised fish, no more wild collected. A beautiful marine aquarium can now be had with the offerings from the many hatcheries that currently exist. By next year tank-raised Yellow Tangs will be readily available, and the list of captive-bred fish will continue.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/an-aquaculture-paradise.458296/

You can state that the bans have nothing to do with saving the reefs all you want, and it might even be true, probably is. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t help a little overall, because I bet poaching and unsustainable practices run rampant in most export nations (Oz likely excluded). You don’t actually know because you don’t have the required data to know, but you hope, I hope too, but hope isn’t enough. You want that to be true, so do I, but we don’t know if it’s true. Just like your statement that the reefs are too big to be impacted isn’t really empirical (or likely accurate, as a tiny impact in a vast system may not be particularly consequential, it’s still an impact, and this system just so happens to be shrinking at an absurd pace with no end forecasted until it’s gone). You can also compare the yellow tang situation to corals if you’d really like, it’s seductive, many would be swayed by it’s simplicity and emotional appeal, but without actual data (and really, probably even with it tbh), the comparison is empirically useless. As positive for the advocacy of the continued wild collection of that particular fish species as it may be, it really provides no support for the sustainability of collecting stony coral, it is apples and bowling balls...

The nihilist in me could justify the continued wild collection of coral. I mean, it’s all going to be dead in a geological time frame eye blink anyway thanks to us collectively. Continuing to collect is like adding another bulldozer to a fleet of a thousand, or putting another pin hole in blimp already mortally riddled with them. The existentialist in me would look for meaning in continued collection, perhaps since the reaper that we’ve so aptly conjured has already been set loose to flay the oceans, and since we as a species apparently won’t stop him and quite likely can’t anymore anyway, perhaps our collections could serve as the last bastions of the beautiful natural world that once was...

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

You can state that the bans have nothing to do with saving the reefs all you want, and it might even be true, probably is. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t help a little overall, because I bet poaching and unsustainable practices run rampant in most export nations (Oz likely excluded). You don’t actually know because you don’t have the required data to know, but you hope, I hope too, but hope isn’t enough. You want that to be true, so do I, but we don’t know if it’s true. Just like your statement that the reefs are too big to be impacted isn’t really empirical (or likely accurate, as a tiny impact in a vast system may not be particularly consequential, it’s still an impact, and this system just so happens to be shrinking at an absurd pace with no end forecasted until it’s gone). You can also compare the yellow tang situation to corals if you’d really like, it’s seductive, many would be swayed by it’s simplicity and emotional appeal, but without actual data (and really, probably even with it tbh), the comparison is empirically useless. As positive for the advocacy of the continued wild collection of that particular fish species as it may be, it really provides no support for the sustainability of collecting stony coral, it is apples and bowling balls...

The nihilist in me could justify the continued wild collection of coral. I mean, it’s all going to be dead in a geological time frame eye blink anyway thanks to us collectively. Continuing to collect is like adding another bulldozer to a fleet of a thousand, or putting another pin hole in blimp already mortally riddled with them. The existentialist in me would look for meaning in continued collection, perhaps since the reaper that we’ve so aptly conjured has already been set loose to flay the oceans, and since we as a species apparently won’t stop him and quite likely can’t anymore anyway, perhaps our collections could serve as the last bastions of the beautiful natural world that once was...

The debate at this point is mostly irrelevant. Mariculture/aquaculture is the only way forward. This has been known for a long time. I been involved for 20 years on both ends. I've also seen the vastness of the reefs and in the big picture our industry has no percievable negative impact even if no culturing were done, but it is and increasing on several fronts. As in the example of the Yellow Tangs, bans will be in place despite facts that show populations are increasing and not affected by the aquarium trade. Again, fighting the trend to ban at this point is pointless and will be nonproductive. Mariculture/aquaculture animals are hardier and should bring no negative light to the industry as long as done responsibly and sustainably. Costs will be more expensive, but as production gets better with increasingly more experience and constantly improving technology prices will drop. Over time hybrids will be produced and this will add to diversity. Captive production of Yellow Tangs may likely make the Hawaii ban irrelevant within a year.

 

[Brian1f1]

The debate at this point is mostly irrelevant. Mariculture/aquaculture is the only way forward. This has been known for a long time. I been involved for 20 years on both ends. I've also seen the vastness of the reefs and in the big picture our industry has no percievable negative impact even if no culturing were done, but it is and increasing on several fronts. As in the example of the Yellow Tangs, bans will be in place despite facts that show populations are increasing and not affected by the aquarium trade. Again, fighting the trend to ban at this point is pointless and will be nonproductive. Mariculture/aquaculture animals are hardier and should bring no negative light to the industry as long as done responsibly and sustainably. Costs will be more expensive, but as production gets better with increasingly more experience and constantly improving technology prices will drop. Over time hybrids will be produced and this will add to diversity. Captive production of Yellow Tangs may likely make the Hawaii ban irrelevant within a year.

I agree with everything you are saying here except I disagree with your personal perception/observation that the reef’s are vast is a valid data point indicating they are not impacted by anthropogenic acts like collection, and we already know they are shrinking rapidly. The other quibble I have is the notion bans won’t be overturned if populations increase... all the available evidence strongly suggests that a global increase in stony corals will not occur within the next millennia, if ever. We can only expect continued declines on the macro level, any increases will be localized and perhaps protected.

Otherwise though, I agree. Mariculture and aquaculture are future. My tank is about 70% aquacultured fish and between 75% and 90% aquacultured corals (I suspect some of my Aqua SD frags were actually chopped wild colonies but I don’t know). The only wild corals I’d really miss are my Aussie gold torch and wilsoni Brain. I’d also miss my purple tangs (but could deal with the aquacultured yellows you mentioned) and my pearly jawfish. It’d still be a good display, and the options will increase rapidly.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I agree with everything you are saying here except I disagree with your personal perception/observation that the reef’s are vast is a valid data point indicating they are not impacted by anthropogenic acts like collection, and we already know they are shrinking rapidly. The other quibble I have is the notion bans won’t be overturned if populations increase... all the available evidence strongly suggests that a global increase in stony corals will not occur within the next millennia, if ever. We can only expect continued declines on the macro level, any increases will be localized and perhaps protected.

Otherwise though, I agree. Mariculture and aquaculture are future. My tank is about 70% aquacultured fish and between 75% and 90% aquacultured corals (I suspect some of my Aqua SD frags were actually chopped wild colonies but I don’t know). The only wild corals I’d really miss are my Aussie gold torch and wilsoni Brain. I’d also miss my purple tangs (but could deal with the aquacultured yellows you mentioned) and my pearly jawfish. It’d still be a good display, and the options will increase rapidly.

OK, we agree on the important things. As far as the industry's impact on reefs via collection, my observations and experience are that it is negligible. There are hundreds if not thousands of reefs dotting the Pacific. You could pick just one, as example Marau Sound in the Solomons where we set up a mariculture farm. In that one lagoon, again-which is among thousands of similar ones in the Pacific, there were corals as far as the eye can see in every direction. The industry worldwide could be supplied for decades with minimal decline from just that one area. The corals do grow back and most colonies are so massive they are not touched for the trade--just like those large Yellow Tangs in Carlson's video. In my personal opinion, the view that the reefs will be gone in our lifetimes is a mindset not based upon the reality I've seen. However, if that were true and we all must accept that as though it were indisputable fact, then all the bans in the world would not help save them because by that theory they are dying due to processes so rapid that nothing we could do could alter their decline. But, debate of this subject is sure to get heated and political and ultimately is pointless since most folks don't have firsthand knowledge of the actual facts, they only know what they have been told by someone else who may have an agenda beyond reporting the actual real situation, again--just view the Carlson video for proof of this in the example of the Hawaii ban situation. Listen to the audio of the person stating as indisputable fact that the aquarium fish population in the wild has declined and compare that with the actual real facts of decades of real measurements showing the populations are increasing. Such twisting of reality and falsifications are common when folks have a certain mindset and an agenda. I guess I'm too old and crotchety to simple accept as indisputable fact what someone else says as so that I don't know if they have ever been to or seen themselves. But in the end us arguing about it does nothing. Being there and doing something to change it might.

 

[Brian1f1]

OK, we agree on the important things. As far as the industry's impact on reefs via collection, my observations and experience are that it is negligible. There are hundreds if not thousands of reefs dotting the Pacific. You could pick just one, as example Marau Sound in the Solomons where we set up a mariculture farm. In that one lagoon, again-which is among thousands of similar ones in the Pacific, there were corals as far as the eye can see in every direction. The industry worldwide could be supplied for decades with minimal decline from just that one area. The corals do grow back and most colonies are so massive they are not touched for the trade--just like those large Yellow Tangs in Carlson's video. In my personal opinion, the view that the reefs will be gone in our lifetimes is a mindset not based upon the reality I've seen. However, if that were true and we all must accept that as though it were indisputable fact, then all the bans in the world would not help save them because by that theory they are dying due to processes so rapid that nothing we could do could alter their decline. But, debate of this subject is sure to get heated and political and ultimately is pointless since most folks don't have firsthand knowledge of the actual facts, they only know what they have been told by someone else who may have an agenda beyond reporting the actual real situation, again--just view the Carlson video for proof of this in the example of the Hawaii ban situation. Listen to the audio of the person stating as indisputable fact that the aquarium fish population in the wild has declined and compare that with the actual real facts of decades of real measurements showing the populations are increasing. Such twisting of reality and falsifications are common when folks have a certain mindset and an agenda. I guess I'm too old and crotchety to simple accept as indisputable fact what someone else says as so that I don't know if they have ever been to or seen themselves. But in the end us arguing about it does nothing. Being there and doing something to change it might.

You are excellent at appeals to emotion my friend, the picture is a nice touch and a sure “like” magnet. That doesn’t change the fact that you’re holding your anecdotal experiences as superior to decades of peer reviewed empirical data and decades of painstaking modeling that has, if anything, been too conservative (e.g. under estimated where we stand today). You are also really holding on tightly to the yellow tang situation. Seriously, I’ll say it again, that does not mean anything for the future viability of global stony corals.... it just doesn’t. It’s not the same thing. For the record, I didn’t say the complete destruction of the reefs is expected in our lifetimes, but something functionally approximating that is looking all but certain in my children’s. The most sunny credible and peer reviewed outcomes include a drastic loss in coral biodiversity, with a few temperature hardy strains coming to utterly dominate, before they too bleach away within two short centuries.

Look, I’m glad you’ve been around the world, I’m glad you’ve seen that the reefs are big... Good for you. Those experiences do not make you an authority on the expected continued global coral reef decline. They also don’t give you the authority to unilaterally dispute the current and well documented global destruction of the reefs, or to pronounce any destruction of the reefs as benign given their current state of duress. It also doesn’t make you better than the rest of us.

You have expertise in mariculture and aquaculture. You also have connections to individuals on the ground in the areas in question and are performing a valuable service by keeping us abreast. I do appreciate that. I’m going to stick to that topic going forward here.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Hey guys, how about them Red Sox?

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

You are excellent at appeals to emotion my friend, the picture is a nice touch and a sure “like” magnet. That doesn’t change the fact that you’re holding your anecdotal experiences as superior to decades of peer reviewed empirical data and decades of painstaking modeling that has, if anything, been too conservative (e.g. under estimated where we stand today). You are also really holding on tightly to the yellow tang situation. Seriously, I’ll say it again, that does not mean anything for the future viability of global stony corals.... it just doesn’t. It’s not the same thing. For the record, I didn’t say the complete destruction of the reefs is expected in our lifetimes, but something functionally approximating that is looking all but certain in my children’s. The most sunny credible and peer reviewed outcomes include a drastic loss in coral biodiversity, with a few temperature hardy strains coming to utterly dominate, before they too bleach away within two short centuries.

Look, I’m glad you’ve been around the world, I’m glad you’ve seen that the reefs are big... Good for you. Those experiences do not make you an authority on the expected continued global coral reef decline. They also don’t give you the authority to unilaterally dispute the current and well documented global destruction of the reefs, or to pronounce any destruction of the reefs as benign given their current state of duress. It also doesn’t make you better than the rest of us.

You have expertise in mariculture and aquaculture. You also have connections to individuals on the ground in the areas in question and are performing a valuable service by keeping us abreast. I do appreciate that. I’m going to stick to that topic going forward here.

Yeah, I don't believe my lying eyes either. If you'd like to start your own thread and put links to all the studies on how the reefs will be gone soon, along with your credentials and direct firsthand info, please do so. OK, you say all the reefs will be gone in your lifetime or your kids or their grandkids or at some time in the future. At least in this thread I've shown I put my effort and money where my mouth is. In my lifetime I've heard folks cry that the rainforests would be gone by now, the earth had a fever and would melt, coastal areas would be swallowed up, and now all the reefs will be gone. All the while doing nothing to change anything except some collect cash and get rich on the proposed doom, and demean anyone that challenges the proposed collapse of the world. And you tell me I'm playing on people's emotions? No my friend, I've taken the time to go and do something and showing evidence of that.

 

[dodgerblew]

I've read your posts and it's obvious you're very well educated but I will say as just "your average Joe" you really come off as, well never mind.
Dr. Macs intent from the beginning with this thread was to share valuable information with us regarding, as the title states, the Indonesia situation and I think he's stuck to his intention without getting into these type debates. What you're contributing is not the threads intent and your contributions with all due respect is hard to follow/understand and boorish. I'm tagging along because I love this hobby and want to know what's going on and how it affects my hobby as I participate in it moving forward and not to pull out a dictionary to keep up. I, for one, thank you Dr. Mac for keeping us informed in laypersons speak and sticking to the threads purpose

 

[Brian1f1]

I've read your posts and it's obvious you're very well educated but I will say as just "your average Joe" you really come off as, well never mind.
Dr. Macs intent from the beginning with this thread was to share valuable information with us regarding, as the title states, the Indonesia situation and I think he's stuck to his intention without getting into these type debates. What you're contributing is not the threads intent and your contributions with all due respect is hard to follow/understand and boorish. I'm tagging along because I love this hobby and want to know what's going on and how it affects my hobby as I participate in it moving forward and not to pull out a dictionary to keep up. I, for one, thank you Dr. Mac for keeping us informed in laypersons speak and sticking to the threads purpose

Truly, that makes me very sad, but this isn’t the place for me to articulate why, nor does it seem I’m capable of doing it in a way that wouldn’t offend or bore anyway. That said, I did close my last post by highlighting Mac’s value and pledging to stick to that, and so I will.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I've read your posts and it's obvious you're very well educated but I will say as just "your average Joe" you really come off as, well never mind.
Dr. Macs intent from the beginning with this thread was to share valuable information with us regarding, as the title states, the Indonesia situation and I think he's stuck to his intention without getting into these type debates. What you're contributing is not the threads intent and your contributions with all due respect is hard to follow/understand and boorish. I'm tagging along because I love this hobby and want to know what's going on and how it affects my hobby as I participate in it moving forward and not to pull out a dictionary to keep up. I, for one, thank you Dr. Mac for keeping us informed in laypersons speak and sticking to the threads purpose

Truly, that makes me very sad, but this isn’t the place for me to articulate why, nor does it seem I’m capable of doing it in a way that wouldn’t offend or bore anyway. That said, I did close my last post by highlighting Mac’s value and pledging to stick to that, and so I will.

No need to get heated or angry at each other. If you believe the reefs will be gone then let's do something to protect whats left. I propose mariculture/aquaculture is the answer or at least all we have as a realistic controllable option. Even if, as I contend, the reefs are not going to be gone soon, it is still the correct thing to do, at least politically correct. I've been doing it for 20 years and don't need to prove or defend myself to anyone. BTW, I'm not an expert at anything, just a guy doing something and trying to not be a whiner and complainer, at least not all the time

 

[oddomatic]

No need to get heated or angry at each other. If you believe the reefs will be gone then let's do something to protect whats left. I propose mariculture/aquaculture is the answer or at least all we have as a realistic controllable option. Even if, as I contend, the reefs are not going to be gone soon, it is still the correct thing to do, at least politically correct. I've been doing it for 20 years and don't need to prove or defend myself to anyone. BTW, I'm not an expert at anything, just a guy doing something and trying to not be a whiner and complainer, at least not all the time

At the end of the day, we’re all on the same team. I respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. I respect what people like yourself have done within the industry, and I respect the average joe hobbyists, such as myself, for continuing to fund this hobby and ultimately keep it alive. We all support the same cause and that’s what matters...It really matters very little who’s actions hold the greatest merit. Just my 2 bits...

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Seriously guys, how about them Red Sox?