Dr. Mac thank you for updating us on your situation. I think the whole indo issues should be dealt with in another thread in the main forum as the average hobbyist doesn't have a clue.
Indonesia Situation
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TheEngineer
Formerly icecool2
You do know Dr. Mac goes to Indo like every 6 weeks, right? Honestly, if he isn't the best conduit for information with his extensive contacts not only with the farms but also with bureaucrats, I don't know who is.
OP
OP
No need for the drama folks.
My info is coming from 6 different sources, exporters I had regularly visited on trips to Indonesia. As I've said numerous times, even many of them don't know all of what's going on and every one at some time have asked me what I'm hearing. So, to know for sure if my or any info you read or hear is accurate is impossible to say. I'm relaying here the best of what I hear or am told and trying to corroborate as best I can.
I currently have a friend in Indonesia that has different contacts from mine and he has said he will be rooting around and feeding me what he finds. His info will be unsubstantiated so take it for what its worth. He has told me a new meeting is set for Monday with the "House of Representatives ". So, let's see what happens with that.
I think we must understand that there are several sides to this situation, but the info we are getting is coming from just one side. It's easy for us to accept this info as fact since it's coming from folks we want to believe, the guys collecting or growing and exporting. We all have almost no clue as to what the real story is from the opposing side. And, with none of us actually being there and sitting in the meetings we are all getting tidbits from exporters, some with varying agendas and varying actual direct access themselves to the proceedings. My contacts that are in the meetings directly have been relatively and frustratingly closed mouthed.
The folks there have had almost zero income since May (except for the few that export fish and inverts except anemones, which is still allowed) and are constantly inundated with inquiries and they read these forums and chuckle at the folks that say they have the answer, including me. I've been told they all read this thread, not sure how true that is though. I know I've been as harsh with the guys I know as well as the government and I'm sure I've unknowingly passed around my share of unsubstantiated rumor. So I'm sure at some point they have decided to just shut down and not communicate. I don't think we can actually put ourselves in their shoes and know what they are feeling. Nor can we actually know all the games that go on behind the scenes. As is said, you don't want to know how the sausage is made! Most of us in the industry side often turn a blind eye to what goes on. Over the years I've given my suppliers lists of what I want and they made the magic happen. Now we all get somewhat of a better idea of all that went into the mix as we peel the layers back, albeit as limited as we have access to the real info.
My info is coming from 6 different sources, exporters I had regularly visited on trips to Indonesia. As I've said numerous times, even many of them don't know all of what's going on and every one at some time have asked me what I'm hearing. So, to know for sure if my or any info you read or hear is accurate is impossible to say. I'm relaying here the best of what I hear or am told and trying to corroborate as best I can.
I currently have a friend in Indonesia that has different contacts from mine and he has said he will be rooting around and feeding me what he finds. His info will be unsubstantiated so take it for what its worth. He has told me a new meeting is set for Monday with the "House of Representatives ". So, let's see what happens with that.
I think we must understand that there are several sides to this situation, but the info we are getting is coming from just one side. It's easy for us to accept this info as fact since it's coming from folks we want to believe, the guys collecting or growing and exporting. We all have almost no clue as to what the real story is from the opposing side. And, with none of us actually being there and sitting in the meetings we are all getting tidbits from exporters, some with varying agendas and varying actual direct access themselves to the proceedings. My contacts that are in the meetings directly have been relatively and frustratingly closed mouthed.
The folks there have had almost zero income since May (except for the few that export fish and inverts except anemones, which is still allowed) and are constantly inundated with inquiries and they read these forums and chuckle at the folks that say they have the answer, including me. I've been told they all read this thread, not sure how true that is though. I know I've been as harsh with the guys I know as well as the government and I'm sure I've unknowingly passed around my share of unsubstantiated rumor. So I'm sure at some point they have decided to just shut down and not communicate. I don't think we can actually put ourselves in their shoes and know what they are feeling. Nor can we actually know all the games that go on behind the scenes. As is said, you don't want to know how the sausage is made! Most of us in the industry side often turn a blind eye to what goes on. Over the years I've given my suppliers lists of what I want and they made the magic happen. Now we all get somewhat of a better idea of all that went into the mix as we peel the layers back, albeit as limited as we have access to the real info.
Sea MunnKey
Valuable Member
Welcome to the world of Asian politics!!
OP
OP
So, what's the bottom line, well as far as I know no one is exporting yet. I'm told a trial shipment was planned for this week but it either never occured or I'm told from one source and loosely corroborated by another, an exporter involved, that it was dropped off at the airport and rejected by the quarantine authority. No health certificates have been issued so shipments within Indonesia can not travel nor be exported. So, we seem to be right back where we started back in May, despite the well publicized proclamations to the contrary.
I agree in general, but not all members are just members. Many of us are working in the industry, or have close friends/business contacts in said industry.
Since I know these people personally I can say you might just see a member saying something, but I see someone with 10+ years import/export experience who lived in indo subtly giving great information.
Not everybody advertises who they are [emoji6]
I knew what ya meant buddy, no worries!
Billldg
My Gem Tang Is Watching You
I feel that we all need to except that until we start to see actual shipments being delivered it is still closed.
dodgerblew
2500 Club Member
The Indo political machine seems to have watched our very own Congress and Senate closely and seems to have imitated them quite well. Not about the people; all about the power and personal agendas.
A question...the Indo political powers have not an issue with taking fish and inverts off the reef but only what they perceive as the reef itself?
Thanks again Dr. Mac.
A question...the Indo political powers have not an issue with taking fish and inverts off the reef but only what they perceive as the reef itself?
Thanks again Dr. Mac.
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
I'm quoting this mod post from another forum here about something completely unrelated to make a point.
That point is, this is a vendor forum and that forum specifically belongs to @PacificEastAquaculture .
That doesn't mean people aren't free to comment and have discussion, but the vendor/op here has requested this discussion stay on topic and is essentially here for him to give us feedback about what he is hearing out of Indo. If people want to dispute the information here, or talk about it further beyond what Dr. Mac is posting, please create a thread about this in the general forums and do so there.
---
Outside of the "reef squad" "forum TOS" stuff, I just want to personally say thanks to @PacificEastAquaculture for creating this thread and keeping us updated on what you're hearing. I've personally been silently following your updates on this for this thread's life.
That point is, this is a vendor forum and that forum specifically belongs to @PacificEastAquaculture .
That doesn't mean people aren't free to comment and have discussion, but the vendor/op here has requested this discussion stay on topic and is essentially here for him to give us feedback about what he is hearing out of Indo. If people want to dispute the information here, or talk about it further beyond what Dr. Mac is posting, please create a thread about this in the general forums and do so there.
---
Outside of the "reef squad" "forum TOS" stuff, I just want to personally say thanks to @PacificEastAquaculture for creating this thread and keeping us updated on what you're hearing. I've personally been silently following your updates on this for this thread's life.
OP
OP
I'm sure there are many others that have more accurate info than I and they are certainly welcome to post anywhere they wish. If you know something as a fact post it here or start your own thread. I'm not an expert, just sharing what I hear and my experiences. This is not a popularity contest and I'm not looking for any praise. After 20 or so years on various boards I know there are many folks that never reveal who they really are and post for various reasons. I've always been up front with who I am and where I'm at. Anyone came come to my facility and see what I'm all about, good and bad, I'm pretty transparent. You can view my YouTube channel or Facebook page and pretty much see it all over the years. No smoke and mirrors, it's pretty much all laid out. I've taken my lumps over the years and fully admit, again, that I'm not an expert on any issue, just a life long passionate hobbyist since 1965. So, if you know someone in Indo, live or have lived there, are in the industry or an observer, or heard from a friend of a friend who has a distant cousin in the industry please post your story and tell us who you are. I'm not too into folks that want to hide behind a screen name and claim they have done and know everything. Tell the world who you are, what you know, and contribute to the community.
OP
OP
Update
Still no corals, cultured or wild collected, flowing in from Indonesia. Still tons of rumors of every type and scenario. Checking, verifying, debunking would be a full time job.
One of my suppliers sent me info about an upcoming conference:
https://ourocean2018.org
The conference is a fact, my supplier's comments are opinion, but opinion of someone in the trenches every day and someone intimately involved and has had zero income for past 6 months, the duration so far of the ban.
My supplier's concern is this (their words, not mine):
"Tell your australians friends to somehow be awared of whats going to Susi convey next week in Our Ocean Legacy, Bali 28-30 October
Tell them to talk with their country’s representative whos coming here. I think Susi is going to launch agenda which is banning coral trade all over the world. She will ask australian fiji and other coral exporters to stop exports and make commitment there.
She keeps saying in media over past days that at this event there has to be solid commitment, and one of her agenda mentioned in website is about preservation of coral reef.
I hope its not, tho!"
I looked at the info about this conference and it appears to be the fifth such event. No speakers are listed yet. We should all be in favor of saving the reefs, but not at the cost of shutting down our industry and hobby. Mariculture and aquaculture can be done sustainably with no impact on wild reefs. Bans that include mariculture and aquaculture are detrimental to their stated agenda of saving the reefs. Their agenda is not actually saving the reefs! Be wary of those asking for donations to save the reefs or restore the reefs, etc. I see many such requests poping up all over. Their sites are slick, their requests seem in ernest, but watch what you are donating to. For one they may be funding shutting down our industry and hobby, or secondly and more likely, feeding someone's pocket.
Still no corals, cultured or wild collected, flowing in from Indonesia. Still tons of rumors of every type and scenario. Checking, verifying, debunking would be a full time job.
One of my suppliers sent me info about an upcoming conference:
https://ourocean2018.org
The conference is a fact, my supplier's comments are opinion, but opinion of someone in the trenches every day and someone intimately involved and has had zero income for past 6 months, the duration so far of the ban.
My supplier's concern is this (their words, not mine):
"Tell your australians friends to somehow be awared of whats going to Susi convey next week in Our Ocean Legacy, Bali 28-30 October
Tell them to talk with their country’s representative whos coming here. I think Susi is going to launch agenda which is banning coral trade all over the world. She will ask australian fiji and other coral exporters to stop exports and make commitment there.
She keeps saying in media over past days that at this event there has to be solid commitment, and one of her agenda mentioned in website is about preservation of coral reef.
I hope its not, tho!"
I looked at the info about this conference and it appears to be the fifth such event. No speakers are listed yet. We should all be in favor of saving the reefs, but not at the cost of shutting down our industry and hobby. Mariculture and aquaculture can be done sustainably with no impact on wild reefs. Bans that include mariculture and aquaculture are detrimental to their stated agenda of saving the reefs. Their agenda is not actually saving the reefs! Be wary of those asking for donations to save the reefs or restore the reefs, etc. I see many such requests poping up all over. Their sites are slick, their requests seem in ernest, but watch what you are donating to. For one they may be funding shutting down our industry and hobby, or secondly and more likely, feeding someone's pocket.
OP
OP
As stated earlier in this thread, corals from Fiji and Indonesia amounted to as much as 90% of corals that had been available in our hobby up until last December when Fiji was shut down and will never reopen and since May this year when Indonesia stopped exports and has not reopened yet.
The pressure on Australia to fill the void of the worldwide coral industry/hobby has been greater than many expected. It will be interesting to see what happens if exports from there are restricted or stopped. Export of corals from Australia is a relatively recent phenomenon. Previously no exports were allowed and traditionally Australia has always been very protective of its wildlife.
The pressure on Australia to fill the void of the worldwide coral industry/hobby has been greater than many expected. It will be interesting to see what happens if exports from there are restricted or stopped. Export of corals from Australia is a relatively recent phenomenon. Previously no exports were allowed and traditionally Australia has always been very protective of its wildlife.
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siggy
My Aquariums Going Again
Dr Mac Is there a true trade group or organization to promote aquaculture? It seems their are no voices to to defend the solid practice. The varied reports you are receiving suggests there are not.
I don't understand why the industry as a whole is not mobilizing NOW to put together a origination to FLY over their and build a cohesive alliance of importers/exporters. First Fuji now Indo. and as you mentioned Australia
will most likely be next.
The manufactures of Reef equipment, brokers and distributors as well as large retail of these goods need to look at the current trends and see that this hobby will become even more exclusive and join the cause.
I don't understand why the industry as a whole is not mobilizing NOW to put together a origination to FLY over their and build a cohesive alliance of importers/exporters. First Fuji now Indo. and as you mentioned Australia
will most likely be next.
The manufactures of Reef equipment, brokers and distributors as well as large retail of these goods need to look at the current trends and see that this hobby will become even more exclusive and join the cause.
OP
OP
There are groups, but thus far from my experience they seem more about padding their pockets than actually doing much. I don't really know much about all the so-called restoration groups. As far as trade groups, none that I know of that promotes mariculture/aquaculture.
You have to remember that this is a very competitive industry and so many of the folks involved were hobbyists turning a love of a hobby into their livelihoods or side jobs in many instances. If its a sideline job for extra income that does not translate often into mobilizing for action. Most folks feel that their private collection and trading and buying among each can fuel their needs. Often forgetting where those corals actually originated from.
Our industry/hobby seems more about lone wolves than organizing for a cause or need. A lot of it is egos, this industry has mega sized egos and everyone knows somebody or says they have the golden egg. So, consequently not much coop among competitors. At least that's my experience. There very well might be something else I'm unaware of.
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Thanks for the update even though it's not yet the one we want to hear!
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