inverts are still alive after dosing copper

[ddc0715]

Can someone tell me why my emerald crabs some snails and my hermit crab are still alive; since my dt they are housed in has been at 2.5ppm of copper (copper power) for a month now? i mean ?????????? if I had known this I would not have spent all that time catching what inverts I could before dosing it?

 

[MnFish1]

Can someone tell me why my emerald crabs some snails and my hermit crab are still alive; since my dt they are housed in has been at 2.5ppm of copper (copper power) for a month now? i mean ?????????? if I had known this I would not have spent all that time catching what inverts I could before dosing it?

There are a couple possibilities:

1. Copper does not necessarily kill 'everything' at a given concentration. as concentrations rise - it will kill more - but - its possible that some (a small number) of your snails etc were more resistant.
2. It is possible that your level was not 2.5 ppm 24/7. (ie - a faulty test, adsorption to rock, etc.). It can be extremely difficult to maintain a CONSTANT 2.5 ppm in a display tank with rock, algae, etc.

 

[JumboShrimp]

I had a large hermit crab once that prolonged exposure to copper couldn’t kill. lol.

 

[Miami Reef]

My tank is also at 2.5ppm copper and the cleaner shrimps and hermit crabs are STILL alive!

However, the snails and copepods died pretty quickly. I think the smaller the organism the more susceptible they are to copper.

And I do have rocks and sand, but I tested 3x a day during the beginning and copper never dropped below 2.4ppm. I use the hannah checker preform the test perfectly. I add .15ml daily of copper because the rocks absorb about .10ppm a day (I test prior to adding copper daily).

 

[ddc0715]

Hannah is what I use to test and I just tested and I am at 2.0 ppm on a 260 TG system. so over a 30 day period, I have dropped from 2.5 to 2.0.

never less. don't always believe what they tell you, is what I'm starting to learn.

side note: i bought a fish from the lfs and their water tested out at 5.0ppm of copper, my Hannah was blinking when it completed the test and the water sample was barny purple. lol

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hannah is what I use to test and I just tested and I am at 2.0 ppm on a 260 TG system. so over a 30 day period, I have dropped from 2.5 to 2.0.

never less. don't always believe what they tell you, is what I'm starting to learn.

side note: i bought a fish from the lfs and their water tested out at 5.0ppm of copper, my Hannah was blinking when it completed the test and the water sample was barny purple. lol

Crabs and shrimp often survive bound copper for some time, but snails usually do not. What if there is some issue with your copper power, or your test kit? What if you Hanna is reading two times too high? Wouldn't that account for this? If you have a need to mix up some saltwater, you could mix it, dose it with the exact amount of copper, then run your Hanna test on it. You should get a reading of 2.1 ppm for copper power and 2.5 for coppersafe.

Jay

 

[davidcalgary29]

All points are well-taken. I'd love to see a copper toxicity chart for inverts, but am not about to embark on scientific experiments with my creatures. One lone trochus snail snuck into one of my QT tanks this summer when I was treating it with copper; it died at 1.5ppm.

Hermit crabs are wondrous creatures, and survive conditions that seem to take everything else out. I mistakenly raised my salinity to about 1.040 when I had just a hermit and a few snails in one of my builds; the hermit was the only thing that survived. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they could survive therapeutic doses of copper -- at least for a little while -- but I'd be afraid that their carapaces would absorb the copper and then slowly release it back to them, eventually killing them over longer periods.

 

[ddc0715]

I have no idea. but they live and are still kicking. so copper and inverts myth kinda busted. but yet still accurate.. lol.

I'm not going to play the "do I have a bad test. I mean I tested it with my Hannah and the lfs tested the water and we line up on the 2.3 ppm so my tester is fine.

 

[moz71]

I have learned that there is no absolute’s in this hobby. It is more a matter of what willing to risk based on BEST known science. I had a goldfish once live though 100 degree water on failed heater and electrocuted. Lol Some things are just more resistant.

 

[moz71]

I have no idea. but they live and are still kicking. so copper and inverts myth kinda busted. but yet still accurate.. lol.

I'm not going to play the "do I have a bad test. I mean I tested it with my Hannah and the lfs tested the water and we line up on the 2.3 ppm so my tester is fine.

Also I agree with you. I think the whole argument that the copper was not perfectly kept at a above thereaputic level is laughable! I can understand to kill the parasites but just because it fell under a certain level for a period of 30 days caused the snail to live!!! Come on!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Also I agree with you. I think the whole argument that the copper was not perfectly kept at a above thereaputic level is laughable! I can understand to kill the parasites but just because it fell under a certain level for a period of 30 days caused the snail to live!!! Come on!

Correct, the whole idea of copper treatments failing if it dips momentarily below a certain level simply isn’t true.
Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Correct, the whole idea of copper treatments failing if it dips momentarily below a certain level simply isn’t true.
Jay

Hey Jay,
I hope all is well!
I Have a fire shrimp and 5 snails in a 10g tank.
The tank used to be my QT tank, now it’s kind of a holding tank for inverts to make sure they’re clear before adding to my DT.

I tested it after having the inverts in there for a couple days, and some copper leached out of the substrate, and was reading 0.31 on a Hanna checker. (It was probably a little higher a day earlier before, when I did like a 20% water change).

I’ve had poly filters and carbon in there since Sunday, and the copper came down to 0.1
(it used to be coppersafe at 2.25-2.5)

If the fire shrimp and snails look to be happy roaming around and eating should I be in the safe zone at this point?

It’s reading almost nothing on the Hanna checker, and I have a poly filter and carbon in there
Thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hey Jay,
I hope all is well!
I Have a fire shrimp and 5 snails in a 10g tank.
The tank used to be my QT tank, now it’s kind of a holding tank for inverts to make sure they’re clear before adding to my DT.

I tested it after having the inverts in there for a couple days, and some copper leached out of the substrate, and was reading 0.31 on a Hanna checker. (It was probably a little higher a day earlier before, when I did like a 20% water change).

I’ve had poly filters and carbon in there since Sunday, and the copper came down to 0.1
(it used to be coppersafe at 2.25-2.5)

If the fire shrimp and snails look to be happy roaming around and eating should I be in the safe zone at this point?

It’s reading almost nothing on the Hanna checker, and I have a poly filter and carbon in there
Thanks!

For ionic copper, I like the reading to be below 0.05 ppm. I don't know the exact danger level for chelated copper, but it would be higher than that.

My concern though is that copper may still be leaching out of the rocks, but is then being immediately taken up by the poly filter (carbon does do much against chelated copper). If the poly filter gets used up, or you remove it, and if the copper continues to leach out, it may build up to toxic levels.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

For ionic copper, I like the reading to be below 0.05 ppm. I don't know the exact danger level for chelated copper, but it would be higher than that.

My concern though is that copper may still be leaching out of the rocks, but is then being immediately taken up by the poly filter (carbon does do much against chelated copper). If the poly filter gets used up, or you remove it, and if the copper continues to leach out, it may build up to toxic levels.

Thank you Jay!
Yes so that’s where I was going with it.. I’ve been good with below 0.05 after Cupramine in the past. But being that I switched over to coppersafe, I was assuming the number would be higher, I just wasn’t sure if there’s an exact number.
The Hanna Checker has been reading 0.1 and things seem to be good so far, so I’ll hope for the best

And yes i can keep poly filters in there for a while then to be safe..
Is it detrimental to the tank to leave it in for a long period?
It’s only a 10g, so I can the filter into smaller pieces to change out every few days/week

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you Jay!
Yes so that’s where I was going with it.. I’ve been good with below 0.05 after Cupramine in the past. But being that I switched over to coppersafe, I was assuming the number would be higher, I just wasn’t sure if there’s an exact number.
The Hanna Checker has been reading 0.1 and things seem to be good so far, so I’ll hope for the best

And yes i can keep poly filters in there for a while then to be safe..
Is it detrimental to the tank to leave it in for a long period?
It’s only a 10g, so I can the filter into smaller pieces to change out every few days/week

I’ve never seen any issues running poly filter for long periods, I’ve done that a few times when I was concerned about metal contamination and I never had any issues.