Is a "quarantine tank" really that essential?

[CarrieB]

Had this conversation with my LFS today. Owner's points were : we run copper at a hard and expensive to test level for two weeks. We're better than anyone in this geography- and - it's possible but infrequent for a sick fish to get through. For you to run something similar would be really hard to handle all the various illnesses and treatments etc. but you could run some simple meds that don't require testing but are volumetrically dosed (like prazi) Most of our service customers don't have problems with our fish.

Net net he was not suggesting i quarantine but had some ideas on what I could do.

My takeaway (from convo, from other threads and this one) is that there is a lot of distance between what a professional aquarium can do and doing nothing. And that in that distance there are some good common sense steps that we can use. Just haven't figured out my plan yet!

I recommend that everyone read Humblefish and melypr1985's reality show known as the Fish Disease and Treatment forum (with all the assorted guest stars. You know who you are.) BTW, I have yet to see them recommending that someone seek help from "professionals" to run a copper test.

Having said that, I agree that knowing what your LFS does should be a factor in what you do in your QT. You can always start with observation for 30 days and Prazipro (because copper doesn't cure everything).

 

[atoll]

I personally do not quarantine and have not in 40 years. But I keep my fish immune so it is not just throwing fish in and hope for the best. That won't work at all. For the majority of people quarantining is the way to go. I feel quarantining is very bad for fish as it will totally destroy their immune system but until you gain enough experience and all your paired fish are spawning and only dying of old age. Keep quarantine. There is no other way. Also if you feed dry foods keep quaranting

Sorry I didn't read Paul's reply until after I posted mine above. In my short 36 years keeping marines (25 plus year disease free and never quarantined a fish or coral in my life) my own experiences mimic his. My fish spawn and live long lives (mostly) with the odd death usually in the first few days (I suspect possible drug caught) however all the other fish continue as normal and whatever may have killed a fish it is not passed on to my long established inmates or even any new arrival that I may have not that I buy fish very often given they live so long. Unlike Paul I am on my 10th or is it 11th tank in 36 years for a whole host of reasons like 3 house moves changes and in personal circumstances. Some of those fish got moved from tank to tank with clowns spawning to over 10 years for instance.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Proper QT is a must for me. Of course to catch and treat any incoming parasites like ich, velvet, brook, black ich, flukes, intestinal worms, etc. Or to observe for other ailments-injuries you may not have noticed, ammonia burns (if shipped), bacterial/fungal infections.

Besides disease, I have a heart for some more delicate fish that are shy and sometimes difficult to feed. The amount of food that get thrown at these fish can muddy up the water pretty quickly, and frequent water changes on a 20g QT are much easier than dealing with algae and nutrient build-up in my DT. Once the fish "learn" how to eat what I feed, they will fare well in my community tank without having to muck up the water quality.

And last, to reduce stress on the fish. This goes hand in hand with the feeding, but most fish are pretty stressed out by the time they've reached their final destination in your home. Giving them a quiet, secluded environment to adjust to aquarium life makes it easier on them when they are eventually added to the DT and have to defend themselves in an already established pecking order. I personally use a social acclimation box as well for this purpose.

It's inexpensive, manages incoming issues without destroying what I've paid and worked hard to build, and helps ease healthy fish into their new environment. There are too many "pros" and not enough "cons" for me. QT wins by a landslide.

 

[atoll]

IMO putting a fish in a small quarantine tank sparsely decorated (almost all I have seen fit this description) will stress a fish even more esp if treated wit the likes of copper and other medications which many also seem to use in a treatment/quarantine tank, yes I know these should be seen as completely different but many people mix them together.

Now I am pretty certain I have at least introduced white spot into my tank, case in question. I have a small groups of 4 Royal Gramma's these fish are known to be prone to white spot it seems. When first introduced I have seen the odd few white spot appear pretty quickly and the fish seen to scratch against the sand and rocks. However in a short period the spots disappear with no other fish showing signs of the spots. Of course I can't be 100% sure the white spots I witnessed were indeed white spot as we know it but my guess is they were. After 25 years and in the last 1o reef tanks I have had I have not witnessed an outbreak of white spot in any of them apart from the odd spot which may occur on the first introduction of a fish. clowns angels and various gobies and blennies amongst others I have kept in these tanks all of which were/are more than capable of catching white spot given the rigt conditions for it to flourish.

 

[edosan]

IMO putting a fish in a small quarantine tank sparsely decorated (almost all I have seen fit this description) will stress a fish even more esp if treated wit the likes of copper and other medications which many also seem to use in a treatment/quarantine tank, yes I know these should be seen as completely different but many people mix them together.

2 key words here

Small QT: I agree, QT must be as large as you can, mine is about 130g, mine have rocks but no sand.
Medications: IMO you should never med a QT tank, any meds must go outside in another tank, specifically made for that. Do not mix them.

I know most reefers can not have so many tanks, but for me is a must...in the QT fishes and corals (is a small replica of the DT) stay for 1 to 3 months. And i feed heavy, specially live food, in order to boost the inmune system.

With that in mind, I have been succesfull so far (1.5 years , so quite new setup) cero lost in my DT. Before that, I had fish losses for diferent problems (velvet, ich, stupidity, etc)

 

[4FordFamily]

Absolutely necessary. Unfortunately, on the flip side with certainty your tank has ich just by sheer number of fish you've added. They have just developed a resistance.

But you'll want to keep velvet and other disease out, you'll be limited to fish that can survive in ich management systems as well.

 

[dima]

I am starting my new tank and i qt fish is essential but what about corals? How do u guys qt them like sps in this case qt requires proper dosing cal alk and proper lights as coral would send there a month correct?

 

[Labridaedicted]

I am starting my new tank and i qt fish is essential but what about corals? How do u guys qt them like sps in this case qt requires proper dosing cal alk and proper lights as coral would send there a month correct?

I dip, but don't qt corals. Ideally, they should also be qt'd, too, though. Anyone who's ever gotten red bugs or the like knows how difficult they can be. Bayer Dips take care of most things, though

 

[KJoFan]

Personal experiences are great. But I would love to see actual data (that doesn't really exist, I know) quantifying the benefits of using a QT. Are success rates actually higher if all fish (or even everything) are QT'd vs. just using common sense and choosing healthy fish/sources? Maybe I'm the only one that would be interested in data like that. I like to see things in black and white.

 

[Areseebee]

Obviously it would be really nice to have that data. It's really not possible to execute in a good controlled way though. I do find we rely too heavily on anecdote and individuals retelling of their own success/failure though.

 

[atoll]

Personal experiences are great. But I would love to see actual data (that doesn't really exist, I know) quantifying the benefits of using a QT. Are success rates actually higher if all fish (or even everything) are QT'd vs. just using common sense and choosing healthy fish/sources? Maybe I'm the only one that would be interested in data like that. I like to see things in black and white.

Now that is a long shot and so many variables to boot. Personal experiences are just about all you can go on and even then the variables are so infinite to render it just about impossible IMO.

 

[saltyhog]

Agree. And the overwhelming personal experience is that QT is invaluable.

I also strongly disagree that QT is inherently stressful, especially if applied as a blanket statement to all fish. My likes are heavily slanted towards wrasse and those have showed no issues with stress at all. All of my wrasse have eaten the day of introduction and most have become aggressive eaters before the second transfer tank. They have all learned to associate me with food and rush to the front when I approach before TTM is over. I've also had several tangs do exactly the same.

When all that's available is anecdotal experience we have to go with the preponderance of evidence.

 

[Labridaedicted]

In order to compile scientifically valid data we would need to have 2 identical systems that contain duplicates of the same fish collected from the same place in the same manner. Anything other than this would be no different than personal experiences. Just everyone's personal experiences in a chart. Compiling a data pool for this would be a massive undertaking.

I didn't realize this was a topic that was so debatable, I just assumed we all agreed that qurantining fish was generally beneficial and some people just choose not to and roll the dice. No argument that I've seen impressive systems with qt and no qt, but I have also seen tanks wiped out with things like velvet even from fish sources we trust. Then there's things like flukes that are hard to see and symptoms would be observed in an observation system.

Like everything else in this hobby... Everyone will have different experiences and we all do what works best for us.

 

[carlson]

In order to compile scientifically valid data we would need to have 2 identical systems that contain duplicates of the same fish collected from the same place in the same manner. Anything other than this would be no different than personal experiences. Just everyone's personal experiences in a chart. Compiling a data pool for this would be a massive undertaking.

I didn't realize this was a topic that was so debatable, I just assumed we all agreed that qurantining fish was generally beneficial and some people just choose not to and roll the dice. No argument that I've seen impressive systems with qt and no qt, but I have also seen tanks wiped out with things like velvet even from fish sources we trust. Then there's things like flukes that are hard to see and symptoms would be observed in an observation system.

Like everything else in this hobby... Everyone will have different experiences and we all do what works best for us.

If that experiment had a powder blue or a hippo involved, I'm pretty sure we (or at least us who have been in the hobby for a while) know what the outcome would be. From my experience in the hobby, it is very difficult to add multiple types of fish (especially powder blues) into a new tank without at least a small ich outbreak. Qt may be stressful, but it saves the lives of the fishs and a lot of money in the long run. Its just one of the things people who plan on staying in the hobby for a long time learn to do if they want success. Sometimes there are success stories w/o quarintining, but those people, like someone else said, should buy lottery tickets ASAP.

 

[atoll]

Agree. And the overwhelming personal experience is that QT is invaluable.

I also strongly disagree that QT is inherently stressful, especially if applied as a blanket statement to all fish. My likes are heavily slanted towards wrasse and those have showed no issues with stress at all. All of my wrasse have eaten the day of introduction and most have become aggressive eaters before the second transfer tank. They have all learned to associate me with food and rush to the front when I approach before TTM is over. I've also had several tangs do exactly the same.

When all that's available is anecdotal experience we have to go with the preponderance of evidence.

Isn't that also anecdotal to some extent? My experience and that of a number of others is somewhat different when it comes to not quarantining our fish. Perhaps people can explain to me as I can't fathom why I and some of my reefkeeping friends who never quarantine our fish don't seem to suffer the loses and disease issues that many other's do OK so that's tongue firmly in cheek there. Perhaps it's some form of magic, extremely lucky in fact unbelievably lucky or for some reason? Myself and Paul B on here are just telling it as we have experienced such things in our many years of reefkeeping. I admit when I first started in the hobby about 36 years ago I did get the occasional problem with white spot etc but I have not had the same for at least 25 years, maybe more.

I will concede that the way some people keep their fish that they may well have to quarantine their new purchases but when it comes to telling people it's absolutely necessary to do so my experience, that myself Paul B and a number of my friends who have kept marines for similar periods of time to me to simply to not get major issues with disease of our fish to any great extent. I also find it quite strange that most people ignore what we are telling people for whatever reason but hey whatever works for you is fine by me. There is more than one way to skin a cat but forgive me if I say just don't tell me there isn't.

I have a thriving healthy reef tank so does Paul B and a number of my pals to back up our claims. You might wish to call that anecdotal, I will call it meeting my fishes needs to keep them healthy and help them live long reproductive lives which in fact they mostly do. I would never say do what I do as I can't guarantee it will work for you no more so than quarantining a fish won't ensure disease won't breakout in the DT after the period of quarantining. BTW I have read many reports of white spot returning even after fish have been quarantined and the DT left fallow for many months. I don't know why this should be and as for disease I am far from the best person to ask about things like white spot treatment as I have so little experience with it or come to that any other form of fish disease.

It is often said this hobby contains elements of magic probably because things happen or don't happen that we can't currently fully explain in a scientific way. I believe I know why my fish don't get sick and can only theorise and relate to my years of experience as to how I keep my fish, that is all I have to go on and it works for me along with a few others as mentioned of course. It is also said what works for one may not work for another and that there are far too many variables to lump us all together, IMO that's a maybe I don't really know.

 

[carlson]

Isn't that also anecdotal to some extent? My experience and that of a number of others is somewhat different when it comes to not quarantining our fish. Perhaps people can explain to me as I can't fathom why I and some of my reefkeeping friends who never quarantine our fish don't seem to suffer the loses and disease issues that many other's do OK so that's tongue firmly in cheek there. Perhaps it's some form of magic, extremely lucky in fact unbelievably lucky or for some reason? Myself and Paul B on here are just telling it as we have experienced such things in our many years of reefkeeping. I admit when I first started in the hobby about 36 years ago I did get the occasional problem with white spot etc but I have not had the same for at least 25 years, maybe more.

I will concede that the way some people keep their fish that they may well have to quarantine their new purchases but when it comes to telling people it's absolutely necessary to do so my experience, that myself Paul B and a number of my friends who have kept marines for similar periods of time to me to simply to not get major issues with disease of our fish to any great extent. I also find it quite strange that most people ignore what we are telling people for whatever reason but hey whatever works for you is fine by me. There is more than one way to skin a cat but forgive me if I say just don't tell me there isn't.

I have a thriving healthy reef tank so does Paul B and a number of my pals to back up our claims. You might wish to call that anecdotal, I will call it meeting my fishes needs to keep them healthy and help them live long reproductive lives which in fact they mostly do. I would never say do what I do as I can't guarantee it will work for you no more so than quarantining a fish won't ensure disease won't breakout in the DT after the period of quarantining. BTW I have read many reports of white spot returning even after fish have been quarantined and the DT left fallow for many months. I don't know why this should be and as for disease I am far from the best person to ask about things like white spot treatment as I have so little experience with it or come to that any other form of fish disease.

It is often said this hobby contains elements of magic probably because things happen or don't happen that we can't currently fully explain in a scientific way. I believe I know why my fish don't get sick and can only theorise and relate to my years of experience as to how I keep my fish, that is all I have to go on and it works for me along with a few others as mentioned of course. It is also said what works for one may not work for another and that there are far too many variables to lump us all together, IMO that's a maybe I don't really know.

It's easy to explain. Everyone buys there fish from different places so everyone's fish are different. There are other factors that come into play as well. If you have a very healthy tank that is ideal for the fish your adding your less likely to have any issues when adding new fish to your tank because they fish will be less stressed and prone to disease. A lot of reefers, including me, choose to Qt our fish no matter how pristine our water and tank is just to be safe. Its everyone's own choice. That pretty much sums up everything.. I think..

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

I don't worry about white spot, I worry about Velvet.

I would be willing to bet that there would be bad consequences if a fish with MV were introduced into Paul B's (or anyone else who does not QT).

I've been doing this for 30+ years and have had old tanks that never had a QT'd fish and that did fine. I've had just as many that got wiped out due to disease being introduced.

 

[carlson]

I don't worry about white spot, I worry about Velvet.

I would be willing to bet that there would be bad consequences if a fish with MV were introduced into Paul B's (or anyone else who does not QT).

I've been doing this for 30+ years and have had old tanks that never had a QT'd fish and that did fine. I've had just as many that got wiped out due to disease being introduced.

It's all a gamble

 

[atoll]

It's easy to explain. Everyone buys there fish from different places so everyone's fish are different. There are other factors that come into play as well. If you have a very healthy tank that is ideal for the fish your adding your less likely to have any issues when adding new fish to your tank because they fish will be less stressed and prone to disease. A lot of reefers, including me, choose to Qt our fish no matter how pristine our water and tank is just to be safe. Its everyone's own choice. That pretty much sums up everything.. I think..

Well not quite, Like I have said in a previous post, I am pretty sure I have introduced white spot into my DT in fact it would be extremely unlikely I haven't done on more than a few occasions. Although unlike Paul B I wouldn't purposely introduce any fish I could see carrying any sort of disease into my DT I have seen fish with what appeared to be white spot flicking against the sand and rocks most notably when I have introduced Royal gramma's. Those and other fish newly introduced fight it off and within 2 or 3 days and are completely clear of any signs of it. Surly not long enough for their immune system to recover from what they have been through since capture. I also buy my fish and corals from 6 or 7 FLS's (OK I am lucky to have so many within a 50 min drive of me) some with better reputations than others when it comes to quality of stock I may add but it doesn't seem to matter at all as I experience the same.

 

[carlson]

Well not quite, Like I have said in a previous post, I am pretty sure I have introduced white spot into my DT in fact it would be extremely unlikely I haven't done on more than a few occasions. Although unlike Paul B I wouldn't purposely introduce any fish I could see carrying any sort of disease into my DT I have seen fish with what appeared to be white spot flicking against the sand and rocks most notably when I have introduced Royal gramma's. Those and other fish newly introduced fight it off and within 2 or 3 days and are completely clear of any signs of it. Surly not long enough for their immune system to recover from what they have been through since capture. I also buy my fish and corals from 6 or 7 FLS's (OK I am lucky to have so many within a 50 min drive of me) some with better reputations than others when it comes to quality of stock I may add but it doesn't seem to matter at all as I experience the same.

That is true! The guy at the lfs I used to go to use to swear that ich was in every tank, whether or not your fish got it, or were effected by it, depends on their immune system, which would depend on the health of your tank. I'm not saying I agree with this at all, but I think that this is a likely case for many people who don't qt. If you do qt, I believe that you can have a 100% ich free system due to the fact that it's a parasite and you can qt fish to unsure they don't have it.