Is a "quarantine tank" really that essential?

[GoVols]

I do not quarantine but I keep a very low fish bio - load so I'm picky about the species that I want.

I buy my most sensitive fish from Divers Den (WYSIWYG). They don't do a full QC but it about as good as it gets.

For myself it's too stressful on an Achilles, Powder Blue etc.. to QC.

Divers Den has always sent me great specimen's and I guess I've been lucky too.

 

[Paul B]

I'm not very good at immunology, but if they've been exposed to the antigens in nature, why would it go away? What is the lifetime of a lymphocyte in a fish? Do fish not have memory lymphocytes the same way we do?

Why do you get a flu shot yearly, or a tetanus shot every 6 years or shots for measles and chicken Pox?. When I was a kid we had to get polio shots every couple of years. Yes, they wear off and we live about 80 years so they last longer. A fish may live 10 or 15 years so their immunity may wear off sooner. Fish were designed to live with parasites and even velvet. It is normal and natural and keeps the fishes immune system operating. We call these things parasites, or pests but imagine what the parasites call us!. They do not hurt the fish if the fish is healthy they enhance their immune system and just eat a little slime and swim off to go dancing. A fishes immune system has more problems than ours because fish live in water, and parasites can swim much better than they can fly. Ever see a flying parasite? Also remember fish normally eat fish every day. I have been diving almost 60 years and never seen a fish in the sea eat a flake. The live fish they eat at every meal also have parasites which they eat and digest. Those parasites are filtered through their kidney which is also where the fish makes most of their antibodies. The antibodies are targeted for the parasites on and in the fish they are eating "every day". When you remove those natural parasites, you are disrupting the immune system and a fishes immune system is a very important biological process for the fish. A fish uses most of it's energy on it's immunity and to grow eggs which fish grow constantly. Remember their slime is a huge part of their immunity and it is water soluble which means it constantly washes away and needs to be replaced, that takes a lot of calories.
That is why, if your fish are not spawning, they are also not immune because it takes up most of the calories a fish eats. Your fish should only die of old age, nothing else. Mine do and so should everybody's. I can put any fish, with any disease into my tank which I have been doing for over 40 years and nothing will happen. Maybe that fish will die, but nothing else will get sick. Try that in a tank full of quarantined fish.
People tell me "Oh yeah, put in a fish with velvet". Does anyone believe that in 40 years I have never added a fish with velvet? I also take fish, snails, flounders, lobsters, amphipods, shrimp, mud and NSW from the sea. I am sure in all of that there was some sort of disease I was adding. Fish that are fed correctly and are spawning or in spawning condition and are constantly exposed to parasites will never get sick. Sorry, but that is just the way it is.
If your fish get sick, it is not the fishes fault or the LFS or Lady GaGa. It is our fault for not allowing it's immune system to do it's job.
Just my opinion of course and if you quarantine, feed dry food or your fish are not producing eggs, keep quarantining.
I know no one read those links I posted above but here is a little of it.

Quote:
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
End quote

That is about the slime coating on fish.

 

[ReefTalk]

Yes I would if I had room, but I would do it only for 2 weeks not 90 days.

 

[Tahoe61]

Paul you do not take into considerations that in the natural environment/ocean, there are natural predators to parasites that target fish. Fish we receive have been starved and treated for transport and shipping and then exposed to LFS tank.

The theory on fish immunity is not substantiated on actual data, titers.... and any number of methods used to analyze immunity. " A fish uses most of it's energy on it's immunity and to grow eggs which fish grow constantly. Remember their slime is a huge part of their immunity and it is water soluble which means it constantly washes away and needs to be replaced, that takes a lot of calories."? Sounds good but it's one individuals thoughts on the topic, observations not observations mixed with actual data but speculations.

I get it, others follow the same methodology with positive results and that is wonderful. It is however prudent to use multiple samples to reach conclusions. Your theories are always followed by it's just my opinion, it's all good but not the most responsible representation. I am confident there is a middle ground when the practice of quarantine is not used and when quarantine is used without the Armageddon of the fishes immune system.

While I can not claim to have had the same tank for 40+ years I can claim to have been in this wonderful hobby since 1967 when I was ordering Sea Horses off the back of cereal boxes and out of comic books. There are many old school hobbyist and divers still active in the hobby because we love it that much, hopefully we as a collective group are open to alternative thoughts on the hobby.

 

[Paul B]

Tahoe, I remember those seahorses they sold off the back of cereal boxes. I never had much luck with them
You are also correct with just about all you said. Above I posted many scientific studies which talk about fish immunity especially from parasites so it is not all my suppositions. I also realize (for some strange reason) that many people can not get their fish into the conditions I speak of. That is not the fishes fault as I am sure you agree that our fish should always be kept in optimum conditions. I have thought about it but can't find a way to have both a natural tank as well as a quarantined tank. We can certainly have a quarantined tank with healthy fish that are fed "almost" proper foods but that would not really be a natural tank for the reasons I stated. Parasites are a normal and natural part of the ecosystem and no threat to healthy fish. Yes, In my opinion of course as I am in no way trying to convert people to give up quarantining. I am merely pointing out another way to go. You are also correct that these observations of mine are only speculation. They are. Scientific studies take place in a lab and go on for a few months or until the money runs out. My tank has some 25 year old fish and every paired fish is spawning. Isn't that natural? I have posted them spawning on numerous occasions and I am not talking about only clownfish which will spawn on damp cardboard. In over 40 years I have been putting fish in there from everyplace and never, not once has parasites taken over the tank. I have no medications or hospital tanks. I have been posting on these forums and writing in magazines for decades and never wrote about a tank crash. Yes, it is speculation and I am sure many people don't even believe me. But if they do, then if my tank can become immune, anyone's tank can be immune. There is so much talk about medications, quarantine procedures and hospital tanks and very little ink is spent on a fishes immune system that makes those things obsolete. In my opinion again.

Do we ourselves want to become immune from most diseases or do we want to live in a bubble? Why do we attempt to become immune by inoculating ourselves from pathogens?

Your last sentence mentions alternative thoughts in this wonderful hobby. A hobby I myself love and have been in for over 60 years. It is not my purpose to have fish die in anyone's tank, quite the opposite as I feel, and said numerous times, our fish should "only" die of old age. I have found a way to do that and am just mentioning my methods for anyone who wants to try that. But as I also keep saying, if you are quarantining or feeding dry foods and your fish are not spawning, keep quarantining.
I did link a lot of information about this on an earlier post by researchers.
Tahoe, thank you for posting and I do like it when anyone questions my theories as I am certainly not the God of fish and can be completely incorrect.

Here is also something I posted on the thread about immunity:

In the real world bacteria, viruses and parasites evolved right along with other organisms that help keep each organism in check. They have their enemies and friends. When we mess with the system by using antibiotics or extended periods of quarantine, or remove living bacteria from their food, we are dooming the fish to a life where they are on the verge of getting a fatal disease.
This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.

 

[MamaLovesHerReefTank]

yeah, a QT is absolutely necessary. The stories you hear about with disasters in QT are from people prophylactically dosing their QT with copper and prazipro and who knows what else, which are all toxic to fish. I keep my fish in QT and observe. If I see something that I think is a disease or pest, i treat it then. Otherwise, use your QT time to feed well, fatten up your fish and make them healthy with fresh frozen foods and get your fish in breeding condition, not to have babies, but just because breeding condition is the healthiest your fish will be. Then when you add them to the DT, they aren't skinny and unhealthy and can better defend themselves as well as knowing that you didn't just introduce velvet or some other awful disease that will wipe out your fish in a matter of 2 or 3 days. Please QT, it will save you and your fish from heartbreak and death.

+1. I have my quarantine set up to observe. I don't treat with anything unless absolutely necessary. I have lost almost all my livestock to velvet before and I never want to go through that again. I am at a good place with my tank and all my livestock are fat and healthy. It's not worth the risk.

 

[Humblefish]

I will try to keep this short & sweet: No matter how hard we try, we'll never fully replicate in a glass box the benefits of living in the ocean. This especially applies to fish health, nutrition and diseases. Even then, many fish in the wild still get sick (or weak) and then get eaten by natural predators. But this is OK because it's all part of the circle of life; for every fish that gets eaten another is born to replace it.

However, I personally can't afford the "circle of life" to go down in my tank when many of these fish cost $50, $100 or more. And I made this deal with myself a long time ago: I would continue to imprison these fish for my own selfish pleasure. However, I would see to it that they always had a good environment to live in, and wouldn't have to worry about food, disease or aggression from other fish whilst in my care. I don't always hold up my end of the bargain (ex. prolonged power failure), but I try my very best. And I'm not saying this trade-off makes everything right, but it is still something...

 

[Lionfish Lair]

This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.

That's not how nosocomial infections are spread through a hospital. It's not because the place is too clean, but because something was dirty. It's from people that don't wash their hands and/or equipment or isolate properly or in a timely manner.

 

[atoll]

A QT set up is only necessary to those whose system needs them. I have no issues with people who believe they are absolutely necessary for them and their tanks but that simply does not mean they are absolutely necessary for all. Quite clearly, those of us who have seen running our tanks for 10s of years without any major outbreaks of disease are not about to change our ways any day soon. To do so would be madness just as perhaps it would be madness for those whose tanks need a QT setup to stop using them. So the simple answer to the question is no but as above.

 

[Humblefish]

A QT set up is only necessary to those whose system needs them. I have no issues with people who believe they are absolutely necessary for them and their tanks but that simply does not mean they are absolutely necessary for all. Quite clearly, those of us who have seen running our tanks for 10s of years without any major outbreaks of disease are not about to change our ways any day soon. To do so would be madness just as perhaps it would be madness for those whose tanks need a QT setup to stop using them. So the simple answer to the question is no but as above.

All we can do is offer up our respective opinions and then the reader can decide for themselves whose advice to follow. I never put any pressure on someone to QT, that is a decision they have to make for themselves. Sometimes it's actually better for a newbie NOT TO QT, suffer a wipeout from velvet and learn the hard way. That devastating experience will reach them in ways my simple words never can. It is unfortunate that so many fish lives are lost at the onset of their time in the hobby. However, future fish lives may be saved as a result, and I take solace knowing I've helped someone master the art of QT'ing after they experienced such a rough start.

For those who never experience "fish armageddon" and don't need my expertise, I say more power to them. They are either extremely lucky or doing something right which never gets properly conveyed into words.

 

[nervousmonkey]

I will try to keep this short & sweet: No matter how hard we try, we'll never fully replicate in a glass box the benefits of living in the ocean. This especially applies to fish health, nutrition and diseases. Even then, many fish in the wild still get sick (or weak) and then get eaten by natural predators. But this is OK because it's all part of the circle of life; for every fish that gets eaten another is born to replace it.

However, I personally can't afford the "circle of life" to go down in my tank when many of these fish cost $50, $100 or more. And I made this deal with myself a long time ago: I would continue to imprison these fish for my own selfish pleasure. However, I would see to it that they always had a good environment to live in, and wouldn't have to worry about food, disease or aggression from other fish whilst in my care. I don't always hold up my end of the bargain (ex. prolonged power failure), but I try my very best. And I'm not saying this trade-off makes everything right, but it is still something...

Very well said @Humblefish . your concern and care for the animals in your tank is obvious and exceptional.

There are those who do not need a QT, that has been proven, however you are all in the minority. Most reefers, esp. new ones do not need to hear that they don't need to QT if they keep their fish super healthy. Most reefers do not know how to do that and feed pellets to their fish. They need a QT or their fish will die. @Paul B and @atoll , I commend you both on your abilities to keep fish ultra healthy and able to combat disease, however a message that QT's are unnecessary is harmful to the hobby as a whole and cause more fish to die, therefore more fish being caught in the wild and the circle continues. I commend you once again, but please consider the thousands of reef keepers who have not been in the hobby for decades, but rather months or a couple of years. They are not ready to emulate what you guys are able to do. Thanks for listening, I think that a QT is absolutely needed for 99% or more of reefers.

 

[atoll]

Very well said @Humblefish . your concern and care for the animals in your tank is obvious and exceptional.

There are those who do not need a QT, that has been proven, however you are all in the minority. Most reefers, esp. new ones do not need to hear that they don't need to QT if they keep their fish super healthy. Most reefers do not know how to do that and feed pellets to their fish. They need a QT or their fish will die. @Paul B and @atoll , I commend you both on your abilities to keep fish ultra healthy and able to combat disease, however a message that QT's are unnecessary is harmful to the hobby as a whole and cause more fish to die, therefore more fish being caught in the wild and the circle continues. I commend you once again, but please consider the thousands of reef keepers who have not been in the hobby for decades, but rather months or a couple of years. They are not ready to emulate what you guys are able to do. Thanks for listening, I think that a QT is absolutely needed for 99% or more of reefers.

I am sorry but I guess you didn't read my last post either that or misunderstood it. Nobody (well I am most certainly not) is saying many people don't need a QT setup the way they have decided to run their systems. I am simply saying there are those of us who have proven over many years we don't need to run a QT setup. I live away from the coast and warm waters so I do not collect mud from the cold UK waters here as it would be totally unsuitable anyway I do and have been for many years kept my reef tanks similar to Paul B and many others I know which have stood me in good stead all these years. It clearly works for me and the others I know. I thought my previous post summed it up if not I am sorry.

 

[Paul B]

Very well said @Humblefish .

Most reefers, esp. new ones do not need to hear that they don't need to QT if they keep their fish super healthy. Most reefers do not know how to do that and feed pellets to their fish. They need a QT or their fish will die. .

This is true and something that I say continuously. Reefers who don't know how to properly feed or get their fish immune should always quarantine. There is no way around it. But not everyone is a Noob.
I have great respect for Humblefish and he knows how to keep his fish healthy. We just have different ways to go about it and we don't try to change each other's opinion because they are only opinions and a means to teach, not belittle as we all want the same thing, healthy fish.

 

[nervousmonkey]

I am sorry but I guess you didn't read my last post either that or misunderstood it. Nobody (well I am most certainly not) is saying many people don't need a QT setup the way they have decided to run their systems. I am simply saying there are those of us who have proven over many years we don't need to run a QT setup. I live away from the coast and warm waters so I do not collect mud from the cold UK waters here as it would be totally unsuitable anyway I do and have been for many years kept my reef tanks similar to Paul B and many others I know which have stood me in good stead all these years. It clearly works for me and the others I know. I thought my previous post summed it up if not I am sorry.

This is true and something that I say continuously. Reefers who don't know how to properly feed or get their fish immune should always quarantine. There is no way around it. But not everyone is a Noob.
I have great respect for Humblefish and he knows how to keep his fish healthy. We just have different ways to go about it and we don't try to change each other's opinion because they are only opinions and a means to teach, not belittle as we all want the same thing, healthy fish.

After reading my own post again a number of times, I realized that my words were poorly chosen at best as I did not mean to belittle nor to be as confrontational as my post sounds. I apologize for singling out the two of you, that was not my intent, and I hope that you both realize that words in a forum lack the spirit and intent with which they were said. Very hard to truly convey one's feelings over a chat board.
To try and restate what I meant to say the first time, @Paul B and @atoll are exceptionally good reef keepers. Whatever they do cannot be explained well on a forum, and the best explanations of fish health and achieving that level of success in a reef tank takes a lot of time, experience and a combination of habits that make their tanks much much different from ours. Paul can put a show from the bottom of the river in his tank and there are no adverse effects. How he does that is the mystery (to us, not to Paul or Atoll).

For the rest of us who have not achieved reefing nirvana, a QT is required, as Paul said. There are others like Paul and Atoll who have been able to utilize a combination of husbandry techniques that provide a perfect habitat for their animals; the key term here is combination of techniques. There is not a silver bullet here, but there are a few things we can do to emulate their success, such as feeding live foods to fish that help increase their health, immune system, breeding condition and other unknowns. That is just *part* of the equation however, and we all need to understand that what Paul and Atoll have learned over decades, longer than most people here have been alive, is invaluable and also unable to be verbalized or written. For everyone reading, read over Paul's and Atoll's posts,, there is a welath of information there, some of which I have incorporated, but I have not been able to get my fish population so healthy that they can fight off diseases like velvet or uronema.

All in all, for the rest of us in this reefing world, learn what you can from these two and help your animals. But also QT. It will save the lives of your fish and your wallet and most importantly, your hearts.

Thanks for listening, and once again, my apologies to Paul and Atoll for not choosing my words more carefully.

Happy Reefing!!!

Lloyd

 

[atoll]

After reading my own post again a number of times, I realized that my words were poorly chosen at best as I did not mean to belittle nor to be as confrontational as my post sounds. I apologize for singling out the two of you, that was not my intent, and I hope that you both realize that words in a forum lack the spirit and intent with which they were said. Very hard to truly convey one's feelings over a chat board.
To try and restate what I meant to say the first time, @Paul B and @atoll are exceptionally good reef keepers. Whatever they do cannot be explained well on a forum, and the best explanations of fish health and achieving that level of success in a reef tank takes a lot of time, experience and a combination of habits that make their tanks much much different from ours. Paul can put a show from the bottom of the river in his tank and there are no adverse effects. How he does that is the mystery (to us, not to Paul or Atoll).

For the rest of us who have not achieved reefing nirvana, a QT is required, as Paul said. There are others like Paul and Atoll who have been able to utilize a combination of husbandry techniques that provide a perfect habitat for their animals; the key term here is combination of techniques. There is not a silver bullet here, but there are a few things we can do to emulate their success, such as feeding live foods to fish that help increase their health, immune system, breeding condition and other unknowns. That is just *part* of the equation however, and we all need to understand that what Paul and Atoll have learned over decades, longer than most people here have been alive, is invaluable and also unable to be verbalized or written. For everyone reading, read over Paul's and Atoll's posts,, there is a welath of information there, some of which I have incorporated, but I have not been able to get my fish population so healthy that they can fight off diseases like velvet or uronema.

All in all, for the rest of us in this reefing world, learn what you can from these two and help your animals. But also QT. It will save the lives of your fish and your wallet and most importantly, your hearts.

Thanks for listening, and once again, my apologies to Paul and Atoll for not choosing my words more carefully.

Happy Reefing!!!

Lloyd

Hey not a problem at all Lloyd we all post stuff with good intent but sometimes it can come over a but abrasive unintentionally, I am not stranger to that myself.
I used to wonder why my fish never got the ailments others suffered as I didn't set out to as such. My methods of reefkeeping just evolved over the years. Back in the day we used to get told by the various experts of the day and in particular manufacturers of foods that it would be more or less suicidal to buy fresh foods from markets and the like and that we were certain to end up with major issues with our tanks. Food HAD to be gamma irradiated to ensure it was safe for our fish to eat. Well in my own way I proved them wrong on fact I would avoid any fish food that is gamma irradiated as it is known to kill (if that is kill is the right term) vitamins in the foods.

Pic taken today of my tank'

 

[Jason mack]

I've been told that lFS keep their sg low because it keeps disease back or slows it down ,then when we introduce them too our tanks with normal sg then disease comes out .. so I will always qt and observe

 

[Husker]

As an immunologist (not specializing in fish), I love all the talk of fish immunity! I would say, fish immunology has taken off in the last decade or so, mostly due to pressure from the food fish industry. As vertebrates, fish have very similar immune systems to ours. Parasites probably exist in homeostasis in the natural environment, but stressors in the home aquarium (which are immune suppressants) likely prevent the balance from keeping the the parasites in check. Usually parasites and hosts co-evolved over many millions of years, with decreasing virulence over time. I'd love to ramble ramble about all this more and more, but I may have to save that for a later date for the sake of time.

 

[Paul B]

Nervousmonkey, no need to apologize as I didn't even know you were talking about us. It is totally impossible to hurt my feelings on a fish forum. We are not curing cancer, mononucleosis or the heartbreak of psoriasis. This stuff is not important to anyone but us fish Geeks. It's only a hobby and the only ones that get hurt are the fish themselves and I eat fish almost every day. I am a little hungry now and my copperband is starting to look juicy.
When this hobby started there were no experts or even people that thought of themselves as experts. I fed my fish dried ants and put pennies in to cure ich. I don't have weird or different ideas, I have the original ideas that evolved after many years way before computers, cell phones or even credit cards. Now we Google things to figure out what to do, we had to actually try something to see if it worked and in most cases, it didn't.
Look at what I was using here to "cure" fish. This is a page from my Log book in 1974. I had burn ointment that I melted and put on the fish. You think it is tough now!
Believe me I have seen every disease known to man and I think I discovered some new ones. I killed more fish than StarKist Tuna so I learned a few things along the way and I learned them the hard way. Not by using my thumbs.



Also. look at the fish I was keeping then. And at that time my tank was 40 gallons.

 

[nervousmonkey]

As an immunologist (not specializing in fish), I love all the talk of fish immunity! I would say, fish immunology has taken off in the last decade or so, mostly due to pressure from the food fish industry. As vertebrates, fish have very similar immune systems to ours. Parasites probably exist in homeostasis in the natural environment, but stressors in the home aquarium (which are immune suppressants) likely prevent the balance from keeping the the parasites in check. Usually parasites and hosts co-evolved over many millions of years, with decreasing virulence over time. I'd love to ramble ramble about all this more and more, but I may have to save that for a later date for the sake of time.

@Husker , @revhtree #reefsquad, I would love to see a featured thread, or a written piece by you on immunology, esp as it relates to fish. You have a wealth of information that is a key part to keeping a fish's immune system in high gear, which is how so many people avoid their tanks getting diseases like ich that spread. There are so many anecdotal stories of keeping fish in pristine health, without someone that can explain it for other reefers to understand. Even simple issues such as "stressors in the home aquarium (which are immune suppressants)", are unknown to the layman reef keeper, which I think you could explain, using immunology as the underlying focal point of the message, to the community here. Personally I would find such an article to be incredibly helpful in learning, as well as a huge missing piece in the overall picture of what makes one system more healthy than the next? @revhtree , do you think we could start a mini-series on fish immunology, as it relates to the bigger picture of fish health/aquarium health? This would be great to add to what a lot of our members have already compiled, such as @Humblefish and @melypr1985, @4FordFamily, @eatbreakfast, @evolved and @Brew12 (not trying to leave anyone out here at all, please forgive me if your name isn't listed), and would be complimentary as a positive part of fish treatment guidelines as a "how to treat before you *need* to treat" series.

Just my two cents. If everyone is amenable, I think we could start compiling information that no other forum has ever put together!!!

Cheers!

Lloyd

 

[Husker]

I am happy to explain some basic science principles regarding immunity, and how it could be related to keeping saltwater fish in aquariums from a theoretical perspective. However, the experience from the hobbyists you list would probably be much more valuable from a practical perspective.