Is anyone else just... failing?

[stevieduk]

I started out with a much different system (nano, different lighting, dry rock), and have gradually moved closer and closer to my old setup. I now have the same size (~60g), similar lighting (T5 and LED combo, used to be just T5), added established live rock. None of that has worked.

I might have just gotten very lucky the first time around. I bought live rock from a guy on craiglist who had an established tank. I got a BTA as a hitchhiker that apparently didn't like that guy's lighting but LOVED mine, as it became as large as a dinner plate and split many times. Basically, my first tank was effortless for me, probably in large part because of inheriting someone else's established rock. I tried to emulate that success by buying established live rock again, and all it has gotten me so far is an infestation of hydrozoans that are taking over.

i think you answered the problem yourself there. You had live rock that was established before, and may have been genuine live rock straight from the ocean, now you are useing live rock that you have bought, which most likely has been sterilized and cycled. Its never the same as it dosnt have the variety of bacteria in it as it would from the sea. I still have the proper living rock in my system that I first got in 1976, its still covered in small clams and critters, and even after all the years new things just appear!!.
I would be patient a while longer and let your system get more mature, then try again

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

Has anyone else noticed that in the first page the Alk measurement was 7.8-8.8 that's a big swing of up and down . Alk is the one thing you want to keep as spot on stable as you possibly can , keep Alk and calc. stable and let thing be .......... my son started a 65 gallon full SPS tank 1 year ago , he acid washed old live rock and has an amazing thriving reef today !

 

[Duraticate]

Dont give up!

 

[srad750c]

Has anyone else noticed that in the first page the Alk measurement was 7.8-8.8 that's a big swing of up and down . Alk is the one thing you want to keep as spot on stable as you possibly can , keep Alk and calc. stable and let thing be .......... my son started a 65 gallon full SPS tank 1 year ago , he acid washed old live rock and has an amazing thriving reef today !

What is purpose of acid wash, I’m old school so I don’t know this one.

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

Look at it as you have figured out ways that haven't worked, unfortunately those with thriving tanks have gone through battles with their own tanks to get them where they are. It's really a great hobby because the knowledge you gain is never ending and can be put to things outside of our little reefs.
You may want to keep a close eye on your butterfly fish depending what corals you are putting in. Also was the tank new? Where the rocks bought from a trusted source? I second getting the tank tested. I've had good results using polyfilter to filter my water on a tank that I couldn't get inverts or corals to live. That may be an easy option to try
Best of luck and keep us posted with results for anyone with your same problems in the future

I am indeed going to keep an eye on the butterfly fish. Basically, I bought him because copperbands are one of my favorite fish out there and really the only favorite of mine that is both appropriate for my tank size and not SUPER difficult to keep (like, say, an orange spotted filefish- my real dream fish!) I thought to myself, hey, if I'm failing at the coral thing, I should at the very least get a fish I really love. And if down the line my corals are growing and the fish is nipping at them, I can always find a new home for a healthy fish.

The tank was used, as all my setups have been. The live rock that I added 2 months ago came from an established reef tank and was covered in coralline algae, which I took to be a good sign.

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

My advice will be to come up with a strategy and stick to it. An example will be , you rethink no3/po4 levels and do icp testing, checks par etc, then I wait a month and then start with a birds nest

This is a really good plan. I like this, makes me feel like I'm more in control versus worrying over 1,000 different things I could change.

As far as rethinking no3/po4, I'm now feeding much more with the copperband butterfly. I was thinking I'll add another 2-3 fish over the next few months and feed more accordingly. That should be a good start to upping those levels, right?

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

PH?

Sorry, PH is 7.8-8.0

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

Has anyone else noticed that in the first page the Alk measurement was 7.8-8.8 that's a big swing of up and down . Alk is the one thing you want to keep as spot on stable as you possibly can , keep Alk and calc. stable and let thing be .......... my son started a 65 gallon full SPS tank 1 year ago , he acid washed old live rock and has an amazing thriving reef today !

It has dropped a full dKH, but that has been slowly over the course of months (like, since September) and mostly due to reading that higher alk with low nutrients was bad news. It doesn't swing up and down abruptly/often

 

[ps2cho]

Here's my observations and experience over the past five years with practically no coral success at all.

Dry Rock = No success until 1.5-2 years running. May be able to avoid losses at the one year mark.
Live Rock = If you have enough of it, you can have a thriving reef in 6-months.

What I've learned is this...Start Dry...and enjoy the tank for what it is for the 1.5-2 years...but when you UPGRADE the tank, DO NOT use new DRY ROCK. Sets you back to square one each and every time. This was my biggest mistake because every year I gave up and restarted. Ever since, whenever I changed tanks, I re-used the dry rock and I am just NOW starting to see some success -- SPS not dieing, coloring up, growing...after YEARS!!!

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

What is purpose of acid wash, I’m old school so I don’t know this one.

acid washing old live rock will kill off anything that might still be in the rock , old dead dry bacteria PO4 etc.... putting it a bucket with water and acid will bubble like crazy and be brown , after a good soak in vinegar and then water you basically have fresh clean rock , it will be white but in time will cover nicely with coraline

 

[ShawnSaucier]

I have had a similar journey as you. Had tanks in the 90’s-early 2000’s and they worked with what felt like minimal stress and haphazard care. Got back into the hobby in the early 10’s and things had changed drastically. LEd’s, controllers,dosing pumps, wave makers with programmed wave patterns, and forums with pictures of tanks you drooled over.
Dry rock takes a while to really mature. Some people have tons of luck with it, some don’t. Maybe add a few choice piece of quality Live rock to add some bacterial diversity to your system. At this point, even if there is a small cycle, what do you have to loose. Pull back from buying Corals and chasing #. If you have a sump, get a skimmer. Beyond pulling proteins, it helps with oxygenation of your water. Try and maintain stable water conditions. If you can’t help buying coral, shop the bargain bins. It’s easier to swallow loosing a $5 piece than a $100 piece. And these can help you indicate how your system is doing.

 

[Brian W]

I'm osing a few sps frags-mini colonies daily....enough to make me seriously throw in the towel and leave this hobby. Nothing but a money trap, then your corals die.

 

[Rick Krejci]

I've been doing saltwater for about 40 years, from UG filters to the present. I had a nice reef tank going in the 90s, with real live rock, softies, LPS and some easy SPS...dosed Kalk, had a HOB skimmer and never had any major issues and only broke it down when I moved.

Had a nice 40 gal reef tank in the 2000's for about 6-7 years...changed a little water about every few years, had live rock, softies, lps and some easy SPS. Only a good HOB skimmer with no other filtration or export. The only thing that died were the xenia since the tank would naturally denitrate itself. Only broke down when I moved (need to stop moving).

Now that I have some money, started up a nicer reefer 250 6 months ago with all good equipment, expecting better success. Just a Chaeto fuge and good skimmer. Started with dry rock, went through the cycle well, accumulated a fairly heavy bioload of fish, battled dinos since phosphates were always dead 0. Battled ich with Chloroquine Phosphate (which did kill the dinos). Battled algae since CP boosted Phosphates through the roof. Got a good CUC (urchins, turbo, sm Kole tang) and everything got settled and levels good. But I still hated the sterility and lack of diversity when I pulled out my flashlight at night...few creep crawlies. And the battles, while not abnormal for a new tank, were far worse than I've had since I started with established cured LR in the past.

Decided to get some uncured LR from KP aquatics...awesome stuff. Had a lot of sponges, coralline, brittle stars and stuff and had only a beach smell. I cured it for about 2 weeks in my QT with lights on to keep everything I could alive and removed stuff that didn't make it (sponges) and a pistol shrimp hitchhiker, doing a lot of water changes to keep ammonia levels low. After 2 weeks, they were 100% good to go with zero ammonia.

Subbed about 1/3 of my dry rock out with the newly cured LR and things settled in very quickly. I got my creepy crawlies back. Interestingly, the live rock has stayed algae free, while the dry rock still is green and the CUC concentrates on it.

I'm at a stable point (at least for now) with Nitrates and phosphates staying low but not zero. Now, finally, just starting out with a clam and some LPS which seem to be doing well. If things stay stable for a few months, will go into the SPS land.

If I were to start again, I'd start with all live rock like I did with my other tanks. Using dry rock, for the first few years keeping everything steady is like balancing a ball bearing on a beach ball. It can certainly be done, but takes a lot of perseverance and some luck. LR reefing is more like keeping a ball bearing on a flat board...still not easy, but a lot more forgiving due to the diversity. So far, hitchhikers haven't been an issue.

I frankly get much joy out of seeing the pods and worms and things at night, knowing I'm keeping a good analog of nature. If something dies or I overfeed, it will be taken care of quickly and efficiently.

 

[Brew12]

I went through some of the same struggles with a dry rock started tank. I'm not sure if it was coincidence, but my fortunes turned when I added some of this to my sump.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fiji-mud-refugium-booster-walt-smith.html

If you can't add it to your sump you can add a small amount weekly. It is basically scooped from a mud flat in Fiji and packed into the bucket (so yes, it can have garbage in it). When I first used it there was still living ulva that started growing in my sump. I was shocked as I only expected it to have living bacteria. It also is supposed to help with trace elements.

Can't say for sure this was the only thing that helped, but when I upgraded tanks a few months ago you can bet I have a 2" layer of it in my fuge!

 

[MarsRover]

I feel like all I see on here all day are either people who are brand new to the hobby or people who have awesome thriving tanks. Is anyone else like me doing tons of reading and research and work on their tank and just... failing?

As some background, I kept a successful tank with SPS for a few years and then took a break from the hobby for about 2 years. When I started up again, I had nothing but trouble. My newest tank is a year old in March and every coral I put in there dies. And I've tried everything I can think of short of tossing all my rock and completely starting over (which I may do eventually). My fish at least have lived, for now.

I'm beyond frustrated because I love this hobby and I want to succeed with this tank so badly. I'm not even in it for the fish, it's the corals-- specifically SPS-- that I love. But I'm failing. And I guess this is just me wondering out loud... am I the only one struggling this much?

I feel you. Been keeping reefs for many years successfully at times in the past. My newest tank is a fussy one. But one thing this hobby and a few laps around the sun have taught me is patience. What we are doing here is trying to replicate something that has taken nature millions of years to perfect, and humans a few hundred years to destroy. Take it one thing at a time (and probably stop adding corals lol).

I'm guessing you've done water tests? Slowly start picking off one bad after another.

Presently, I've been having terrible luck with QTing fish. Seems like they all make it to day 25 on CP and then dead.

I have been very careful with this batch currently in QT. Two have kicked the bucket but one was a tiny little thing and the other was pretty boney when I got them. My three look strong and eat well so fingers crossed. Two more weeks.

Good luck

-MR

 

[ectoaesthetics]

Could not agree more with the folks stating that it is harder to get a quickly established tank when using dry rock... but I do have some tricks that I employ to fix the issue. First don’t be afraid to add bacteria cultures to the tank. Second phantom feeding from day one is a must. Not lighting the tank for ththe cycle is a must. Fourth, get a cup of live sand from every reefers tank you TRUST. If they have aptasia or flatworms more into another tank!! Fith I always add a turkeybaster worth of “junk” (dirty detritus) to my tank from every tank I trust as well. Sometimes this is only 2-3 tanks. But adding 2-3 well rounded bacterial cultures from successful tanks is a great way to seed your rock, sand, and whatever other filtration you might be using. Lastly (not something I’ve done yet) make sure if you are going to run biopellets or another carbon form that you start it off week one. I’m makes no sense, but from what I’ve seen tanks that start with this method from the beginning seem to fair better than thanks that add it later -from a ballanced filtration standpoint.

 

[griff500]

My first tank was started with live rock and I never had any issues - I even thought it really wasn't that difficult a hobby. You can guess what happened next...

My second (current) tank is two years in and still having issues and I started that with dead rock (Real Reef Rock). I seem to read of far more issues with SPS where dead rock has been used than where live rock has been used. Having said that, it's partly my own fault for trying to 'fix' a phosphate 'issue' when SPS had finally started to grow well with the 'wrong' numbers... It still took nearly 18 months to get to the stage where it was starting to take off before I mucked things up.

If I was starting a tank again I would definitely start with live rock if possible (and pay far less attention to the numbers).

 

[XNavyDiver]

I can’t prove it but think this is a function of using dry rock. My tank is 15 months old and up until the one year mark I experienced the exact same problems. Other than low nutrients (which I now dose KNO3 for) my parameters were all perfect. But SPS either failed to thrive or outright RTN’d.

It’s just been in the last few months that things have improved. Acros and montis are colorful and growing and the few pieces that survived the last year, which all failed to grow at all, are showing good growth.

I’ve got no idea what the reason behind it is, but I’ve read many similar accounts from folks who started with dry rock. I think it just takes a lot more time to establish a stable system when you start dry. The good news is that, at least from how things stand in my tank now, it appears that patience pays off.

It's good to hear this! Your situation is exactly the same as mine and I had/have all the same questions about dry rock.

 

[XNavyDiver]

Just started up my 35g cube in October with dry pukani rock. Zoas take weeks to open up after going in the tank. Acans seem to be fine for a while but I just had one melt. My monti digi is doing ok, but is a bit pale. My bonsai acro all but ditched in a week or two. Bad case of STN. The one thing I can grow like a weed is cyano. Cyano all over the place. I've got chemiclean ordered and a good amount of GFO in a reactor. Dry rock is the devil. I absolutely hate hate hate starting a tank with it, and this is my only reef tank I've started with dry rock. My 14g nano was started with live rock from an LFS and it kept and grew SPS no problem from day one. I had a little problem with bubble algae and vermetids, but both of those were easily taken care of. I'll NEVER start another tank with dry rock... I'm going to get my own live rock curing station going here soon in the garage and buy a few pieces of really good old live rock to start it going then add in a bunch of pieces I want for my next build.

I don't know if it's ever been suggested to you, but I "inoculated" my tank (set up with Pukani like yours) two separate times with Garf Grunge. It turned the tank around. I think it added a (I know it did actually) a ton of biodiversity the pukani was lacking. Just a suggestion worth looking into!

 

[charlesk]

I feel like all I see on here all day are either people who are brand new to the hobby or people who have awesome thriving tanks. Is anyone else like me doing tons of reading and research and work on their tank and just... failing?

As some background, I kept a successful tank with SPS for a few years and then took a break from the hobby for about 2 years. When I started up again, I had nothing but trouble. My newest tank is a year old in March and every coral I put in there dies. And I've tried everything I can think of short of tossing all my rock and completely starting over (which I may do eventually). My fish at least have lived, for now.

I'm beyond frustrated because I love this hobby and I want to succeed with this tank so badly. I'm not even in it for the fish, it's the corals-- specifically SPS-- that I love. But I'm failing. And I guess this is just me wondering out loud... am I the only one struggling this much?[/QUO