Is DSB crash just a myth?

[Scott Campbell]

I hear you on that. see if you agree this would be specialized sandbed work out of the norm plus quite fun to attempt:

in the emergency forum or in the nuisance algae forum on most days, there are invasion challenge threads where sandbeds are nearly always in play. they ask for a tank turnaround, something where they don’t make excuses to every viewer. They want a clean reef. Budge your way in and sell a specific action set, see if you can command a result in their tank, several entrants are willing to do action or inaction set X if you’ll deliver a more balanced tank. Use nitrate and phosphate tuning to help/ earn after pics, not by rinsing. Be using an alternate method to change the sandbeds back to what works best, maybe dosing with certain bottle bac strains or buy pod kits, those are real possibilities. Be delivering the outcomes they ask for using a sand preserving method.

just in this thread we have a sand swap work mention. In the new keepers forum, and in gen forum, if you keep an eye out you will see home move prep request threads + upgrade/combine reef threads those are very serious works because recycled tanks kill peoples fish and corals. Try to implement ways of combining and moving their tanks to new homes without rinsing, log the works.

in my opinion the hobby will benefit when alternates to rinsing/lowering diversity are sought and worked. Plus it’s fun, there’s decent challenge in re training someone’s misbehaving bed into something compliant. be right in the middle of where the work is, I think waste in between the grains and that overall balance you mentioned matters greatly in move preps and invasion follow-thoughs.

people need repeatable clear methods they can use to control a sandbed, working in others tanks makes you apply repeating patterns in your approach to handle everyone’s unspoken details and variation.

Brandon

I think DSB's are a cool idea. But I don't personally use a sandbed. And I don't honestly feel like there is one way to run a tank. So I'm not really interested in trying to "prove" there is a better way. If the situation is an emergency - then breaking down the tank may be the best solution. Kudos to you for walking people through that. My advice to avoid the situation becoming an emergency:

1. Stock fewer fish.
2. Stick to utilitarian fish that require less food to be added to the tank.
3. Keep lots of bugs, worms, macroalgae, live rock and microfauna relative to fish.
4. Find an export strategy that works for you. Make sure that export strategy is keeping up.

Scott

 

[BZOFIQ]

BZOFIQ
You literally did not click or open either example to see the direct requests from the posters for a job. I tell them exactly how to do an action to preserve their tank, been working six years plus it's linked here.
...

I am familiar with your threads and agree with pre-rinsing sand etc. but some of the methods recommended just plain dont work on large and/or established systems. It seems you just flatly advise against large systems or subscribe to the idea of display frag tanks.

DSB is not cause for all evil as you claim it to be. Likewise, going bare bottom does NOT guarantee results.

In the same section where you advise people there are plenty of bare bottom tanks undergoing same exact invasions you describe - please elaborate on that phenomena.

 

[brandon429]

All I can do is ask for the jobs, send me bare bottom tank challenges to try n work. bare bottom is growing in number of work examples agreed

There are indeed cyano challenges in bare bottom tanks assertive rinsing didn’t fix, frogger has one. heck maybe we should add a sandbed there plus all the good bugs.

 

[BZOFIQ]

...heck maybe we should add a sandbed there plus all the good bugs.

Perhaps that's the missing ingredient.

 

[outerbank]

Its not easy to move any tank.

Issues with DSBs that I have experienced:

1. Moving any tank is a challenge. If moving DSB tank, it is best to keep some of the sand to seed new sand and pitch the rest. I kept a couple gallons and ditched the remaining sand from a 220 gallon tank when moving. This really is not all that hard if you have a nearby place to dump it. When I broke down the tank, there was no smell and the sand was surprising clean. No compression or solidification. My current DT is a BB with 75 gallon tank sump containing a 5 inch DSB and circulation pump. I thought I might prefer BB DT but I am purchasing a new tank and will have a DSB if I can find a 28-30 inch deep tank.

2. Seeding sand can be an issue nowadays due to limited available seeding packages. It makes a good reason to go to the coast during the summer. Take a shovel and tall quart container. Take a core sample of sand by inverting the cup upside down and then dig it out. This is best done in the bay as the beech constantly turns the first foot of sand disrupting and oxygenating it. Keep the core intact in the container and then just reverse the process to seed the DSB in the tank in a stratified fashion. Also, take some pure oxygenated sand from the first several inches.

Better yet, also gather as much dry sand as you need and use that as the DSB and seed it with the live sand collected above. This will work perfectly as the sand size will match the live sand and organisms collected. Collect the finest sand you can find.

3. After about 3 years, very fine detrius may build up on the sand. Just siphon this off as needed.

4. O2 consumption during power outage is an issue.

5. Harder to clean glass at the sand-water interphase.

6. May contribute Phosphates.

7. Powerheads or corals falling upside down on sand can be bad or kill coral.

8. Takes up space in tank.

Benefits:

1. Biodiversity
2. Denitrification
3. Low maintenance for me. No replacement parts other than replacing sand or slight cleaning, no power consumption, no filters, no pumps, etc.
4. Big plus for sand dwelling corals and fish.
5. Feeds the tank as the biodiversity reproduces.
6. Consumes all uneaten food and waste amazingly fast.
7. Tank stability.
8. Sand critters are cool.

They are not for everyone but I like them. I don't care for a ton of filters, equipment, pumps, filter socks, etc and I minimize all that junk. Next tank (hopefully this year) will be DSB. I'll be looking at sand critters while others are cleaning filters and pumps, replacing warn parts, soaking magnets, crawling under the cabinet, emptying skimmate collectors, vacuuming shallow sand beds or BB, doing water changes, etc.

 

[OrionN]

One of the best way to have a stable reef tank is a DSB. The problem with this is that the tank is so stable and nice that DSB Reefers don’t do the maintenance they should be doing. Over time the three will be problem. Not because of the DSB but because the DSB take care of a lot of problem until it cannot do it any more.
A well run DSB have a huge amount of life. One can see the numbers of life and diversity of it b counting the types and the numbers of tunnels that can be seen at the sand glass surface.

 

[jda]

Why does brandon always want everybody else to do the dirty work of setting up tanks and documenting work threads instead of doing it himself? Inability? Laziness? Just easier to question everybody else? No doubt having experience is hard, but it is also very important.

Since I started doing this in 1992, the number of tanks that were successful that had seeded sand and live rock far outnumber the tanks that do not. It is not even close. The internet did not hardly exist at this point and internet-reefers that work on screens and keyboards instead of actual tanks want document threads on these tanks? Anybody have a DeLorean that I can use to go back in time to document my reefing experiences back before the internet - the Flux Capacitor on mine is broken.

There ought to be a special badge on this forum for people with no experience who just work off the backs of others and reef on the on the internet only. Posters are not equal in value or effectiveness, so I strongly suggest that people pay the most attention to the ones who ACTUALLY did what they are posting... OrionN has an actual tank. Otherwise, this just seems to me like somebody who has just watched pornography on the internet wanting to give advice about actually satisfying a real-life partner.

 

[flsalty]

Why does brandon always want everybody else to do the dirty work of setting up tanks and documenting work threads instead of doing it himself? Inability? Laziness? Just easier to question everybody else? No doubt having experience is hard, but it is also very important.

Since I started doing this in 1992, the number of tanks that were successful that had seeded sand and live rock far outnumber the tanks that do not. It is not even close. The internet did not hardly exist at this point and internet-reefers that work on screens and keyboards instead of actual tanks want document threads on these tanks? Anybody have a DeLorean that I can use to go back in time to document my reefing experiences back before the internet - the Flux Capacitor on mine is broken.

There ought to be a special badge on this forum for people with no experience who just work off the backs of others and reef on the on the internet only. Posters are not equal in value or effectiveness, so I strongly suggest that people pay the most attention to the ones who ACTUALLY did what they are posting... OrionN has an actual tank. Otherwise, this just seems to me like somebody who has just watched pornography on the internet wanting to give advice about actually satisfying a real-life partner.

I think that's a little harsh. Brandon does have a pico reef. He tries to apply that to larger reefs. Not everyone can have 50 tanks to run experiments. At least he is attempting to compile data. How many times have you seen people be dismissive because a person's advice is "anecdotal"? He's attempting create a block of work to prove a theory.

I'm not sure why he equates moving a sandbed with maintaining one though.

 

[Super Fly]

Anyone know if fighting conch's safe for DSB?... just want to make sure it's not too big and wont disturb too deep/much into DSB

 

[OrionN]

Anyone know if fighting conch's safe for DSB?... just want to make sure it's not too big and wont disturb too deep/much into DSB

These conch are fine. I got 4 in my tank. Really disturbing the sand bed is fine. I got a lot of wrasse that sleep in the sand and no problem.

 

[OrionN]

One should never reset up a sand bed after it died. There will be problem with the dead worms that decomposing and release nutrients for a long time. The problem is the live animals died. When they live, it is a vibrant community. After they died, they need to be clean out.
The problem with reset up a sand bed is so straight forward, you don't. It is the same as bury a big dead fish in the sand when you set up a new tank. It will be a problem if you start out a tank with a huge mass of dead tissue.

We should think of Live sand is like live rock but a lot more live in it. The way sand is, there is not a lot of circulation other than though the top. Dead live rock stinks to high heaven until it cure. Nutrient form LR will eventually gone when cure, but with the live sand the surface for nutrient release is so small in comparison to the amount of nutrient in it that it will never completely release once it is dead. It just slowly discharge essentially for years.

The LIVE organic mass in DSB is huge. That is why we should not reuse dead DSB. That is why DSB get into trouble with disruption of power, and why minimal move is OK, anything that disrupted circulation after a few hours, that DSB is dead, just throw it out and begin with a new bed. (or else wash it really well befor reuse it)

 

[Super Fly]

These conch are fine. I got 4 in my tank. Really disturbing the sand bed is fine. I got a lot of wrasse that sleep in the sand and no problem.

Great, thanks! Huh... thought sand sifting wrasses were no-no for DSB so been staying away from them.

 

[brandon429]

Jda the hardest thing for you and I to rectify is that you work with your own tank, and Im reporting patterns from the field, from working in others tanks. For sure my perspective comes from pico reefs, but hardly any application works are from them, its all large tankers using our biology.

Im not interested in tanks that sit there year after year doing fine, those are accepted/ ok by me.

Im interested in work threads where actions are requested, invasions are a problem, or its time to move and not kill things as a typical sandbed sits in the home

i can't find examples of your take on sandbeds being used to design effective ones or remedy bad ones, we dont have much to compare without additional work shown

you can't be offended at me relaying what I think a ton of work patterns distill down to, all you can do is make your own and present different patterning, see if we agree. this is the part that is lacking from your argument, I can't gain patterns out of just one example, your own fine reef.

remember, its not about agreeing with me or my perspective, its about getting knee deep in sandbed jobs and posting what you can do where requested. anyone who manages random beds out to at least 10 pages deserves 25% credibility from you even if using methods you dont agree with. I see most people trying to follow the rules, still getting problems, so I think old sandbed science is just about wrong. we earn turnarounds, rescues, and invasion fixes using opposite biology. that is not said to inflame you, its a reflection of my work and hours spent studying.

i friendly challenge anyone to seek out work using opposite means and compile patterns, we need that balancing in the actionable side of the hobby. You and I use two different currencies in arguments, so we never agree.

my advice is to run a sandbed actively, by cleaning, so that when its move or invasion fix time you dont have a huge export job required to protect things-thats in my opinion what several years of patterns show in work threads as an ideal way to run a sandbed. I dont find the diverse worm and pod zone to be super critical in overall success; i find people willing to ride a crash to the very end just to preserve these animals that seemingly didn't help anyway.

 

[brandon429]

steering direction back to the original title: Is a DSB crash just a myth? try moving a tank or working with invasion challenges before answering, that's a simple takeaway. An ideal sandbed sitting there, not having to be moved, not under challenge doesnt represent how sandbeds express in the average home.


For sure a sandbed crash is real, especially to those who venture outside of the home for perspective. its killed a few in-home reefs we can read here as well. there are also acknowledged classic beds doing just fine for years, agreed, yes, accepted. When access time comes, it takes special means to work with the average sandbed, they're unforgiving zones for many.

the number of reefs about to be built that must be accessed, moved, not staying in the home 20 yrs vastly outnumbers the classic ones that can sit in place, so we need procedures that ready tanks for this accessibility.

 

[OrionN]

Great, thanks! Huh... thought sand sifting wrasses were no-no for DSB so been staying away from them.

That is a myth. Sand shifting fish, hunts for the worms in the sand will prey on sand creatures, should not be use in small tanks because the sand volume is small and cannot take the pressure of predation. Large tanks with large sand volume is fine.
I have a numbers of sand wrasse, that sleep in the sand. These are fine. I have a lot of circulation in my tank. very random flow. Sometime sand blow everywhere. If you see some of my photos, some of them look like the fish are in a sand storm, because they were. I also have a pair of sand shifting goby, each about 4 inches in my tank.

 

[jda]

I totally can because you do not have the experience to know what you are doing with your distillery and gathering. Anybody who thinks that page count matters more than actually doing something should not be giving any advice to others. Knowing where you should not be participating is part of being good at something...

I have a really nice reef and you don't see my commenting or trying to help people with fish bowls because I am smart enough to know to stay out of it. You don't see me coming and taking a dump on anything that people post about fish bowl reef because I am smart enough to know that my experiences with larger reefs do not matter in this domain and also that what I have read and can gather from other people is not important when I have no experience to property interpret it. I could just argue with everybody who has actual fish bowl experience under the thinly veiled guise of research or data gathering or, even worse, "field work," but would harm people who are trying to actually reef.

Perhaps I am asking too much coming from an age where surviving the publication process mattered. Demonstrating actual personal competence mattered. Being a subject matter expert mattered. If we are to a place where only page and post counts are the only thing that matters, then I guess that I do not need to contribute.

 

[flsalty]

Great, thanks! Huh... thought sand sifting wrasses were no-no for DSB so been staying away from them.

Some wrasses sleep in the sand, which is fine. What you don't want are sand sifting fish, or starfish that eat all that life in the sand.

 

[jda]

I have a whole bunch of leopard wrasses that cannot disturb the sandbed enough to notice. Conchs eat worms in the sand, among other things, but there is always enough for them to repopulate to equilibrium. Cucumbers eat some microfauna as well... but, again, they can repopulate with ease.

 

[OrionN]

steering direction back to the original title: Is a DSB crash just a myth? try moving a tank or working with invasion challenges before answering, that's a simple takeaway. An ideal sandbed sitting there, not having to be moved, not under challenge doesnt represent how sandbeds express in the average home.


For sure a sandbed crash is real, especially to those who venture outside of the home for perspective. its killed a few in-home reefs we can read here as well. there are also acknowledged classic beds doing just fine for years, agreed, yes, accepted. When access time comes, it takes special means to work with the average sandbed, they're unforgiving zones for many.

the number of reefs about to be built that must be accessed, moved, not staying in the home 20 yrs vastly outnumbers the classic ones that can sit in place, so we need procedures that ready tanks for this accessibility.

I am a believer in balance of import and export of nutrients. This need to be maintains. We can think of the sand bed like a huge creature, eating and eating, and growing. It is a really good clean up creature that keep the tank water pristine. If something kill it or make it sick (variety of things reefers add to their tank, like antibiotics and medications, or build up of micro nutrients to toxic level) These factor can maim, if not outright kill the sand bed. When this happen, you will have problem to no end. I guess this is why people thinks that sand bed crash the tank. It really is the reefer maim the sand bed, which in turn cause the problem.
Often sand bed help the tank to be so stable and doing well that reefer just don't try to maintain it like they should. I am extremely against "cure in a bottle". These cure are nothing but trouble for a reef tank, especially one with a DSB.

Happy reefing everybody.

 

[brandon429]

well said. the specific takeaway/measure and action we use in our work threads to assess when that is out of balance is cloud testing. we will take a rock, swish it mid water with flow off, and see if lots of castings come off. If so, the overall attention, flow etc needs updating for the tank to keep it ready for access, if that character is important to someone, it may not be for all.

additionally, we drop test the sandbed/grab deep and drop. *this would not kill my reef though a cloud would result* since it hasn't been terribly long since my last deep clean. Im on the more balanced side of what you state above, due to direct intervention cleaning at times. My animal diversity in my sandbed isnt nonexistent, its just lower than a typical dsb due to action.

i can for sure say unequivocally there are thousands of beds out there a sand drop test would cause true measured concern up to and including loss, because they never cloud assessed at all the whole life of the reef and its in a clouded state...no sandbed advisors tell us to watch out for this specific event or how to gauge along the way, before the consequence. the very first link in the sand rinse thread is a 200 gallon tank move where the mover removed sand and did not cloud assess, it caused total eutrophication upon setup, an extended delay fix and now things are coming back around. we show how to circumvent the entire loss phase of that, and the impacts of compounding detritus are implicated even if its just rock loaded with it.


to the masses: if you want to use sand and be safe with it, then occasionally deep clean it or be so consistent on pre cleaning from the start, it never compiles. Occasionally test and make sure your rocks aren't retaining waste. dont do the classic hands off mode, it results in problems 80% of the time over the life of the tank we show, many times that manifests as a total crash loss or a hearty sustained invasion of some type. if cleaning your sandbed is lowering diversity, buy it some replacements. you can still be active and in control of a sandbed + high diversity if that's important in your reef design.