is Ich/velvet seasonal?

[Octane13]

I often take random trips to one or more LFS' in a month depending on my boredom level (usually rainy days in the summer) or I tag along if a friend is shopping. This month I have made it to 4 different locations. Three of these stores are usually very healthy looking and I know one of them treats with at least prazi and will not sell any "newly" arriving fish this store also has a separate system for inverts. The fourth store deals almost exclusively in captive bred livestock and had no obvious issues. The point is that the three stores with wild caught livestock either has ich, velvet or internal parasites or in one case a combo. I have talked to each store about their vendors and fish availability, and they all have different vendors. Although I suspect that they are coming from one distributor.

1) Are these parasites seasonal? (more likely to be present in high numbers)

2) Does collection location matter? (are different areas more prone to diseased fish)
2a) Does collection depth?

3) Has anyone else noticed an increase (either month to month or over the years)

4) Do people buy a fish knowing that it is sick -- I think @4FordFamily wrote an article which touched on LFS "QT" practices but I cannot locate it for reference. What I got from it was just assume your getting sick/infected fish.

 

[4FordFamily]

I often take random trips to one or more LFS' in a month depending on my boredom level (usually rainy days in the summer) or I tag along if a friend is shopping. This month I have made it to 4 different locations. Three of these stores are usually very healthy looking and I know one of them treats with at least prazi and will not sell any "newly" arriving fish this store also has a separate system for inverts. The fourth store deals almost exclusively in captive bred livestock and had no obvious issues. The point is that the three stores with wild caught livestock either has ich, velvet or internal parasites or in one case a combo. I have talked to each store about their vendors and fish availability, and they all have different vendors. Although I suspect that they are coming from one distributor.

1) Are these parasites seasonal? (more likely to be present in high numbers)

2) Does collection location matter? (are different areas more prone to diseased fish)
2a) Does collection depth?

3) Has anyone else noticed an increase (either month to month or over the years)

4) Do people buy a fish knowing that it is sick -- I think @4FordFamily wrote an article which touched on LFS "QT" practices but I cannot locate it for reference. What I got from it was just assume your getting sick/infected fish.

1) No, the distribution system is what exposes the fish

2) No, and no for the same reason

3) Not month to month for the same reason as above but it’s definitely worsening. Velvet used to be uncommon and now I think it’s as common or more common than ich. 3-5 years ago you could more easily get away without QT

4) https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/lfs-fish-“treatment”-the-“sudden”-need-for-quarantine.308/. Assuming fish are sick is a fair takeaway from that article.

 

[Octane13]

1) No, the distribution system is what exposes the fish

2) No, and no for the same reason

3) Not month to month for the same reason as above but it’s definitely worsening. Velvet used to be uncommon and now I think it’s as common or more common than ich. 3-5 years ago you could more easily get away without QT

4) https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/lfs-fish-“treatment”-the-“sudden”-need-for-quarantine.308/. Assuming fish are sick is a fair takeaway from that article.

That's the article. Not going to lie I definitely didn't QT my first two fish and certainly no inverts/corals... I did my second two fish and have a QT system ready and waiting now. Anyone who has seen what Ive seen (see tang pic in your article) and doesn't QT is insane. Still for a new person to SW and certainly to chemicals, dosing is at a minimum nerve-wracking. This site is a huge help but for a noob it can still be overwhelming. I also think you experts make it look and sound easy

 

[HotRocks]

I often take random trips to one or more LFS' in a month depending on my boredom level (usually rainy days in the summer) or I tag along if a friend is shopping. This month I have made it to 4 different locations. Three of these stores are usually very healthy looking and I know one of them treats with at least prazi and will not sell any "newly" arriving fish this store also has a separate system for inverts. The fourth store deals almost exclusively in captive bred livestock and had no obvious issues. The point is that the three stores with wild caught livestock either has ich, velvet or internal parasites or in one case a combo. I have talked to each store about their vendors and fish availability, and they all have different vendors. Although I suspect that they are coming from one distributor.

1) Are these parasites seasonal? (more likely to be present in high numbers)

2) Does collection location matter? (are different areas more prone to diseased fish)
2a) Does collection depth?

3) Has anyone else noticed an increase (either month to month or over the years)

4) Do people buy a fish knowing that it is sick -- I think That's the article. Not going to lie I definitely didn't QT my first two fish and certainly no inverts/corals... I did my second two fish and have a QT system ready and waiting now. Anyone who has seen what Ive seen (see tang pic in your article) and doesn't QT is insane. Still for a new person to SW and certainly to chemicals, dosing is at a minimum nerve-wracking. This site is a huge help but for a noob it can still be overwhelming. I also think you experts make it look and sound easy

This^^^^
I constantly wonder why I let 4ford get me into all of this hahaha.

QT is a must in the hobby currently IME.

Dosing and chemicals isn't too bad as long as you have the proper means of measuring accurately and allow yourself the time needed to monitor.

Another key to success is having everything you need on the shelf. Some things take a few days to get ordering online and can be the difference between saving a fish and not.

For me copper was very difficult until I started using the Hanna checker along with copper power.

 

[Gareth elliott]

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/137/1/012094/pdf

Very small sample study of only 211 fish and only from 2 locations in Vietnam.

This might be useful if the fish was caught singularly, and directly shipped to the final owner, and QT’d. But for the reasons @4FordFamily stated, even a study of this nature does not pertain to any collected fish that enters the general trade.

 

[Octane13]

An interesting article and exactly what I was looking for. As stated it is a minuscule sample size but would be nice for the hobby to know. Maybe only collecting certain times of year.

 

[Octane13]

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/137/1/012094/pdf

This might be useful if the fish was caught singularly, and directly shipped to the final owner, and QT’d. But for the reasons @4FordFamily stated, even a study of this nature does not pertain to any collected fish that enters the general trade.

Assume that all fish are placed in holding tanks which are plumbed together. Raises questions bout captive bred fish. Do you still QT them if they are shipped together and are segregated from the "general" populations?

 

[HotRocks]

An interesting article and exactly what I was looking for. As stated it is a minuscule sample size but would be nice for the hobby to know. Maybe only collecting certain times of year.

If hobbyists were able to purchase directly from collectors the pasasite issues could reside some. The problem is these fish cross so many systems that are contaminated from the time they are collected to the time they reach us. You have the collecter holding tank, then distribution holding, then retail or online holding. It would not be feasible for each one of the links to the chain to keep parasite free systems. The fish are moved through as quickly as possible. It is unfortunate, but this is why we are left as the end user to clean up the mess.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Agree with @HotRocks.
I think the most utility in that article would be if you were collecting for yourself. But it is also very location dependent, i honestly have no idea if the winter water in Vietnam has any correlation to winter waters anywhere else.

 

[HotRocks]

Assume that all fish are placed in holding tanks which are plumbed together. Raises questions bout captive bred fish. Do you still QT them if they are shipped together and are segregated from the "general" populations?

If you QT one fish you might as well QT them all. This is my opinion.

I know there are some breeders that only keep tank raised fish and "claim" disease free. A tank raised fish is more succeptable to disease due to not ever having any "natural" exposure to these things in the wild as a collected fish does.

If you work hard to properly QT all fish/inverts/corals, why take a chance on somebody claiming to be sending you a disease free fish?

At a minimum without prophylactic treatment I wouldn't dare drop it in my tank without 14-28 days of observation.

I do have a couple exceptions to this rule myself. @Humblefish and @4FordFamily would be trustworthy sources for disease free fish.

Bobby is one of the best in the industry as far as knowledge and willingness to help others. This forum is full proof. He has helped me a ton, and definitely saved several of my fish with various infections etc. 4ford is the one who got me into the hobby and "taught" me how to QT, and that is when the obsession with fish disease and the challenge became real. He also lives 5 min away. We share QTs I have fish in my DT that he QTd, he has fish in his DT that I've QTd. Etc.

 

[Nopy117]

1) No, the distribution system is what exposes the fish

2) No, and no for the same reason

3) Not month to month for the same reason as above but it’s definitely worsening. Velvet used to be uncommon and now I think it’s as common or more common than ich. 3-5 years ago you could more easily get away without QT

4) https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/lfs-fish-“treatment”-the-“sudden”-need-for-quarantine.308/. Assuming fish are sick is a fair takeaway from that article.

This might be why I keep having "veteran" hobbyists tell me not to bother to Qt, and just " Feed those fish!!" the older folk in the hobby have setup sometimes dozens of tanks over the years without QT, but now that its worsening, the average new hobbyist is having issues on the first and second tank. Pretty dangerous disconnect to have if you ask me!

 

[HotRocks]

This might be why I keep having "veteran" hobbyists tell me not to bother to Qt, and just " Feed those fish!!" the older folk in the hobby have setup sometimes dozens of tanks over the years without QT, but now that its worsening, the average new hobbyist is having issues on the first and second tank. Pretty dangerous disconnect to have if you ask me!

For ich, some species can live with it or in a management tank just fine. Still playing with fire IMO especially if you like the fish I like!

 

[Nopy117]

For ich, some species can live with it or in a management tank just fine. Still playing with fire IMO especially if you like the fish I like!

Velvets really what takes me back on the immunity stance, like @4FordFamily said, its super common now, Looking back at issues I've had with the saltwater side of things, I was wrongly thinking it was ich that was wiping out my fish, but it was velvet the whole time. Infact, I don't think I've ever had ich in my systems at home. *Knock on wood*

 

[HotRocks]

Velvets really what takes me back on the immunity stance, like @4FordFamily said, its super common now, Looking back at issues I've had with the saltwater side of things, I was wrongly thinking it was ich that was wiping out my fish, but it was velvet the whole time. Infact, I don't think I've ever had ich in my systems at home. *Knock on wood*

Very true I believe it, I've seen it on 75% of my fish orders. I don't even wait to start copper anymore.

 

[Rython]

Still for a new person to SW and certainly to chemicals, dosing is at a minimum nerve-wracking. This site is a huge help but for a noob it can still be overwhelming. I also think you experts make it look and sound easy

THIS!

I have quarantined and treated every fish for my tank and my nephews for the last two years. It's stressful. I completely understand why people roll the dice and don't quarantine. Conversely, more than half the fish i've received had a disease I needed to treat, so I don't see how you could possibly get away with not doing it.

The major stressors for me:

Until recently copper was just scary because of the lack of precision in measuring. It drove me to just not do it. I did TTM instead, but of course that doesn't cover velvet.
TTM is a real pain. Committing to doing that and then all the cleaning at specific points of time is a real challenge to fit into my life. And it's pretty stressful too. Several times I went to set up the new tank and realized my water was too hot, or not salty enough (and if I add more salt I really need to let it mix for several hours), or some piece of equipment wasn't completely dry. I had a heater fail on, I had a breaker trip and cut off power overnight, I had a tank seam split and all the water drain out. I end up with tanks all over the house. I eventually developed best practices, but still, I've come to hate TTM. Thanks to the new copper method, i'm hoping TTM is behind me.

And only maybe half of my treatments have been successful. There have been a few times when a fish died in spite of my efforts. Wrong treatment? Too much treatment? Not enough? Some of them didn't even look that sick when they died.

The medications themselves are scary. Most of them, I have no idea how dangerous they are for me or my family. The only one I know for sure is formalin, and that is super dangerous. I wear rubber gloves, but I should probably also get a respirator. What about Furan-2 powder, should I be concerned about breathing that? I'm cutting one of those packages open every day, and every time I see the yellow puff of smoke come out when I do. Metroplex? Kanaplex? NFG? What about when a little trifecta water splashes out on me during a water change. What if I get Ruby Reef Rally on the rug or my clothes? throw it out or just wash it? I just have no idea how dangerous this stuff is and that stresses me out. I know caution is probably advised when dealing with any medication/chemical, but it would really be helpful to know the degree of danger each represents.

But as you all know, not doing it just isn't an option. Because of all this I do think there is a lot of room for disruption in the live fish market. If someone could figure out a way to provide fish, on a large scale, that really might only require an observation period I suspect there's a good amount of market for that, even if it means increased prices. I've definitely spent way more on hospital equipment and fish medication than on the fish themselves, so i'd certainly rather just spend more (even way more) and get healthy fish and not have to go through all of this. Maybe some day....

 

[Octane13]

This^^^^
I constantly wonder why I let 4ford get me into all of this hahaha.

QT is a must in the hobby currently IME.

Dosing and chemicals isn't too bad as long as you have the proper means of measuring accurately and allow yourself the time needed to monitor.

Another key to success is having everything you need on the shelf. Some things take a few days to get ordering online and can be the difference between saving a fish and not.

For me copper was very difficult until I started using the Hanna checker along with copper power.

I have been slowly adding chemicals to my arsenal as I read and learn more. I think part of my issue with dosing is that I don't do it often enough to be comfortable with the process, which fish can be sensitive and when to pull the trigger to dose/dip etc. I know I recently picked up a few fish (QT'ing thankfully) and and gone back to that store and every fish IS infected. Should I just start treatment with no signs on my fish? Should I wait a few days to let them settle in before treatment as to not stress too much? Should I dip then treat knowing whats in the stores tanks? or just wait until symptoms arise and possibly too late? AAAAHHHH!!. SIDE NOTE: I picked up a hanna alk tester and love it, if the copper checker is just as easy and accurate then I need to get one.

 

[HotRocks]

I have been slowly adding chemicals to my arsenal as I read and learn more. I think part of my issue with dosing is that I don't do it often enough to be comfortable with the process, which fish can be sensitive and when to pull the trigger to dose/dip etc. I know I recently picked up a few fish (QT'ing thankfully) and and gone back to that store and every fish IS infected. Should I just start treatment with no signs on my fish? Should I wait a few days to let them settle in before treatment as to not stress too much? Should I dip then treat knowing whats in the stores tanks? or just wait until symptoms arise and possibly too late? AAAAHHHH!!. SIDE NOTE: I picked up a hanna alk tester and love it, if the copper checker is just as easy and accurate then I need to get one.

Yes the Hanna copper checker is very easy to use.

Typically I try to give the fish 3 days of settling in/eating med free before beginning treatment.

I have a batch of fish in QT now, with a few picky eaters. I didn't wait three days this go round, started with treated food for internal parasites day 1, and started copper on day 3.

If you know the system your fish came from is infected, I would not wait for symptoms to show up before beginning treatment personally. That is up to you though.

 

[Octane13]

Yes the Hanna copper checker is very easy to use.

Typically I try to give the fish 3 days of settling in/eating med free before beginning treatment.

I have a batch of fish in QT now, with a few picky eaters. I didn't wait three days this go round, started with treated food for internal parasites day 1, and started copper on day 3.

If you know the system your fish came from is infected, I would not wait for symptoms to show up before beginning treatment personally. That is up to you though.

I offered food maybe an hr after adding to the tank and they all came out and ate like pigs. I will be following the guides by @Humblefish they are well written and very detailed. I'm like 95% sure I'll be dealing with velvet here as the symptoms exhibited @ the lfs were of velvet.

 

[HotRocks]

I offered food maybe an hr after adding to the tank and they all came out and ate like pigs. I will be following the guides by @Humblefish they are well written and very detailed. I'm like 95% sure I'll be dealing with velvet here as the symptoms exhibited @ the lfs were of velvet.

If they are eating well and you are seeing symptoms of velvet definitely begin copper and maintain the therapeutic level in the next 48 hrs.

As you said you have great instructions to follow.

 

[ReefWithCare]

I see a lot of noobs kill their fish in QT. Either they over Medicate or they don’t keep up with water changes and the fish dies. That’s been my issue with it. I wish there were more trusted source or more noob friendly QT methods.

With the advent of AIO tanks reefing is reachable for noobs, but QT is still IME an advanced/experienced topic.