Is Indonesia Ban going to lift?

[Viking_Reefing]

I think your definition of detriment is wildly different than mine. Just because some are price gouging a few corals does not mean the hobby is completely different. Those corals are still available for purchase, and it is only a few specific color variations. The rest of that species is still available at 'normal' prices.

I don’t know how long you’ve been in the hobby (Please don’t take this as a attempt to belittle or anything like that, just trying to make a point) but I think the hobby is a lot worse of in this regard then when I started some 17ish years ago.
Back then you could buy large colonies for around 40$ here in Sweden and I’m guessing even cheaper in the states. That way a new hobbyist could get something that actually looked like a reef in a relatively short timeframe, adding to the enjoyment.

Now days people are almost forced to start of with tiny and, relatively speaking, very expensive frags.
If I was just starting up I’m not sure if I would be to keen having to wait a year before my reef looked halfway decent.

Don’t get me wrong, I would still buy frags back in the day but that was after you hade fleshed out your tank with some nice colonies.

Just a side note, I remember when the tsunami hit in 2004(?), for about six months it was dang hard to get ahold of decent corals...I thought that was a bad time to be a reefer.

 

[Marco S]

l am not sure if I agree or disagree with the ban since I have not done the proper research to make a decision, so I will not chime in on it, but this is what I do know...

I started my saltwater journey last year and since I decided to QT everything wet I have just gotten around to collecting coral five months ago. Sadly, Torches are my absolute favorite and I have paid the price for that, (literally). As I have not experienced the pricing before the ban, I was thinking it was normal to pay $100 a head for basic Torches and up to $600 a head for "special" ones. I was OK with this until I got to the last two Torches I absolutely needed to get. The Indo Gold and Dragons Soul seem to be over $600 and up to $1,400 at any place I could find them online and none of my local LFS's would carry them.

While I have some crazy colored Torches, (a 1 head Aussie Gold, a 4 head Aussie Gold, a 7 head lime green with blue tip Indo Torch, a purple with green mouth Indo Torch etc...) the Indo Gold and Dragon Soul are just amazing to me and I need to get them. That being said, I am not willing to pay the prices I have seen so far and have been searching high and low for better prices.

Ultimately, I think the answer to this problem is us. Those of us that have these crazy high priced corals have the opportunity to sell them at a decent price and still make some good money instead of selling them at the same ridiculous prices that the stores want for them. I don't know about the rest of you, but I did not get into this hobby to make money and although it is a while away, when I start fagging my Torches I will not be asking anyway near the market price for them regardless of what bans are in place and how hard they are to find. Maybe I am being naive, but that's what I think about it. I understand if you have a business and the going price is so high that you have to sell it higher to make a profit, but if you bought an Indo Gold for $50 a head years ago and are now selling them for $700+ a head that just seems wrong to me.

I will stop rambling though and end this on a positive note. Yesterday I happened to be in the right place at the right time and met a fellow reefer that has an Indo Gold he was ready to frag and he agreed to sell me three heads for $400 which is $133 a head. That was the first price he gave and I did not try to bargain or haggle and took it right away. He probably just made a huge profit from what he originally paid and still has another three heads to sell and still has a decent size colony to enjoy and he just made me a very happy reefer!!! It's a win win in my book. ;Happy Even though the market dictates a ridiculous price does not mean we have to. In the frag trade "we" are the market and "we" can dictate the price. I know there are many among us who will think this is the stupidest thing they have heard and will try and get as much as they possibly can for a piece of hard to get coral, but hopefully there is someone else out there that agrees and has a Dragon Soul to sell me...

On a side note: why are the Aussie Gold Torches so high? Is there a ban in Australia as well or does the Indo ban somehow affect Australia as well?

 

[Stigigemla]

Well it is the Indonesians that has to decide.

Pro the trade is the income to the state from the trade.

Against the trade is the risk of the reefs beeing emptied of the colorful color morphs. Spreading coral morphs and their parasites around the islands away from their origin.
And rare fishes could be in danger from overfishing.

I think the Indonesian government will have to build up a system based on licenses and inspectors from the government.
Educating the inspectors is not done in an afternoon so I guess it will take time to build up the industry again.

 

[William Mumford]

What are you even doing here?

I dont understand the question?

 

[homer1475]

I think the ban should be in place for life. The way that Indonesia decimated the reefs is unfathomable.

What are you even doing here?

I dont understand the question?

Whats not to understand? We are on a thread talking about the end of the ban, and you want it kept in place, because "indo has decimated the reef" . You do realize that if this ban had been in place this entire time, 90% of the corals we keep in the hobby would not even exist in the hobby?

And indo has not decimated the reef, most of what was coming out of indo now, was not wild reefs but rather maricultered in marine farms. I would hope that before posting in this thread, one would get informed. Should there be limits on what and how the reefs are cultured, sure.

 

[sde1500]

the video of coral racks overgrown with corals isn’t an indication that the natural reefs where ok when harvesting was going on

No but it’s and indication that the big companies that source much of the coral we could import from Indo have a large supply of sustainable coral.

While it surely possible to harvest ivory from elephants responsible. How on earth would you know where it came from

Except it isn’t. Coral mariculture is a thing that is sustainable. Bali aquarium. Golden Marindo. Those are legit companies farming corals. Pretty easy to know when you’re importing from them what you’re getting. Comparing to elephants is ridiculous.

It's ridiculous that prices are as high as they are to begin with. The amount of hobbyist growing and fragging from their own tanks is enough to keep others happy. The problem is greed. I mean I get it, if it's yours, it's yours but putting a 1400 price on a hg torch is just pathetic. If it weren't for this "ban" there wouldn't be a demand to begin with.. It's funny how that works.

I don’t think you have any idea how supply and demand works.

 

[sde1500]

so would this mean Fiji and pukiani rock would become available again if the band is lifted?

Fiji rock wouldn’t come from Indonesia, so no. But there is still some Fiji rock available, I know livestock USA had some.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

The Indo coral ban has dramatically increased the prices of coral many folds. The increase prices for Aussie Golden Torch is that it's not as easily collected as before and maybe another "excuse" to increase profitability on the pretext of the Indo ban as well.

I have to admit that the Indo or other region of coral collectors check the internet to gauge the rampant US prices for corals and why would they not want a share of the "inflated" profit and what do they do next ...? By marking up the affordable to a much costly fees for collected corals from thereon. In my opinion the reefer enthusiasts like anyone of us here are the ones who don't stand any chance of benefiting from the greed of the coral business fronts! They know some of us would come up with the monies to purchase regardless.

Just recently a very beautiful Golden Torch was sold for a measly USD$1200!!! No doubt it was the BEST coloration I've seen in my 15+ years in this hobby. The Aussie Golden Torch doesn't even come close to it's color intensity!

 

[mannyhernz]

Whats not to understand? We are on a thread talking about the end of the ban, and you want it kept in place, because "indo has decimated the reef" . You do realize that if this ban had been in place this entire time, 90% of the corals we keep in the hobby would not even exist in the hobby?

And indo has not decimated the reef, most of what was coming out of indo now, was not wild reefs but rather maricultered in marine farms. I would hope that before posting in this thread, one would get informed. Should there be limits on what and how the reefs are cultured, sure.

Well said.

 

[William Mumford]

Whats not to understand? We are on a thread talking about the end of the ban, and you want it kept in place, because "indo has decimated the reef" . You do realize that if this ban had been in place this entire time, 90% of the corals we keep in the hobby would not even exist in the hobby?

And indo has not decimated the reef, most of what was coming out of indo now, was not wild reefs but rather maricultered in marine farms. I would hope that before posting in this thread, one would get informed. Should there be limits on what and how the reefs are cultured, sure.

One should understand more about a person before they speak about them. When you read and look at things online you might get some knowledge. When you live there you understand the entirety to the issue. I didnt think I needed to state what purpose I had I was just giving a little insight on it.

 

[shred5]

so would this mean Fiji and pukiani rock would become available again if the band is lifted?

No totally different area..

 

[sde1500]

I was just giving a little insight on it

Were you? Saying nothing more than your opinion that the ban should stay due to "decimated" reefs is hardly much insight.

 

[shred5]

What people do not get is this ban has nothing to do with protecting the reef.
If that were so mariculture would have been left alone. Same in Fiji where Walt was actually putting coral back on the reef.
Some people need to get educated about the problem.
Corals are still coming out of these areas, they are just coming out in a more destructive nature now because it is poaching and smuggling.

Coral collection gives a economic value to the reef which gives them a reason to protect the reef.
Collecting coral for the hobby does more good for the reef than bad. Seriously allot of these places were replanting reefs. Just ask Walt Smith about that.

Just because you buy frags does not mean they were raised on a farm. You know how many corals are still coming out of the wild especially lps? Next will be bans in these other areas and most corals will be expensive.

These people that think this ban should stay in place need to ask why you are in the hobby. How many of you own a tang, angel, cleaner gobies, Cleaner wrasse, Snails etc? Those do allot of good in the ocean and being taken out do far more damage to the reef than removing part of a coral or mariculture coral. How many that say the ban should be left in place have wild corals in their tanks or wild fish?

I am not saying certain corals that are endanger should not be banned. We need regulations for sure to make sure those corals that should not be removed stay or we only collect from portions of the reefs that can sustain collection. We need to be smart about everything. We need to do better as a hobby. We need better shipping, we need better wholesalers. We need better retailers.

Matter of fact if you really want to do more good these are the first places that you should demand do better..

 

[EMeyer]

The exact same arguments against coral harvesting are made by extremists against logging. They are wrong in both cases for the same reasons. Corals grow faster than trees.

It's all so tiresome...

 

[homer1475]

One should understand more about a person before they speak about them. When you read and look at things online you might get some knowledge. When you live there you understand the entirety to the issue. I didnt think I needed to state what purpose I had I was just giving a little insight on it.

Insight into what exactly? Saying a ban should remain in place without any information to back that up is absolutely nothing but your opinion. Certainly not any insight into why you think the ban should remain in place other then your opinion of a decimated reef.

 

[Hermie]

The exact same arguments against coral harvesting are made by extremists against logging. They are wrong in both cases for the same reasons. Corals grow faster than trees.

It's all so tiresome...

Painting your opponents with extremism is easy. Finding science that backs up your claims is hard.

 

[EMeyer]

Acropora can reach reproductive maturity in 3-5 yrs. Some trees grow that fast, but few. It's a very appropriate analogy.

 

[William Mumford]

Insight into what exactly? Saying a ban should remain in place without any information to back that up is absolutely nothing but your opinion. Certainly not any insight into why you think the ban should remain in place other then your opinion of a decimated reef.

I said what you said was wrong. Because I lived there and saw it. Insight is not learned online and definitely you saying what happend and how it was harvested or grown from what you learned online is wrong. You can come with me next time I go and I will show you what I'm talking about. Just telling you obviously is not enough.

 

[William Mumford]

Were you? Saying nothing more than your opinion that the ban should stay due to "decimated" reefs is hardly much insight.

Saying that its decimated because I saw it first hand being decimated. I think first hand account is much better than just what ever info you have is I'm not trying to undermine your studying but check more sources or better than that see it with your own eyes. Not YouTube.

 

[homer1475]

I said what you said was wrong. Because I lived there and saw it. Insight is not learned online and definitely you saying what happend and how it was harvested or grown from what you learned online is wrong. You can come with me next time I go and I will show you what I'm talking about. Just telling you obviously is not enough.

Saying that its decimated because I saw it first hand being decimated. I think first hand account is much better than just what ever info you have is I'm not trying to undermine your studying but check more sources or better than that see it with your own eyes. Not YouTube.

Had you just started with this information, your insight would not have come into question as opinion. Thank you for explaining yourself.