Is my method OK?

[johnbr]

On the Metroplex are you dosing 2 scoops per 10g every 48hrs?

The instructions says 1 scoop per 10 gallons.

I'm doing a water change today and redosing.

Should I do 2 scoops then?

 

[HotRocks]

The instructions says 1 scoop per 10 gallons.

I'm doing a water change today and redosing.

Should I do 2 scoops then?

I thought they read 1-2 scoops? Which is vague I know.

Symptoms shouldn't be worsening though.

 

[johnbr]

I thought they read 1-2 scoops? Which is vague I know.

Symptoms shouldn't be worsening though.

Hey rocks...

Yeah brother. Today both the clown and the scopas were dead. The blue Tang is now better without any signs of illness just the colors the seem a little pale (not as bright and vivid).

But today I noticed that my fox face has these black spots.

Any idea what it could be?

 

[Victoria M]

john, I am so sorry you lost your fish. You have been working so hard to save them.
it is hard for me to follow exactly what you are doing, and what you have done. I could be wrong but I think you have done additional dips and baths. You keep asking should I do this bath, should I add this medication. In a panic, I know. You care and want to do everything you can. Follow the advise given regarding immediate treatment for this present moment, and nothing else for now.
I have a few things to add that I think are very important.
Stop changing water. trust the two seachem badges, stop testing for ammonia with the other test kit. and ONLY change water if you have ammonia per the ammonia badges.
when you are changing out the water you are losing efficacy of the medications due to dilution, and influencing changes in the parasite behavior that might actually increase their host seeking behavior.

Dose the bottled bacteria like crazy instead of changing water. you can use 10 x the recommended dose and it will not hurt your fish. I have always used Stability by Seachem but am a recent believer in the Fritz products. Use Biospira or whatever, you have on hand.

Water changes are stressful for a fish.
Moving the fish around, even to give them a medicated bath is very stressful for them. focus on the intank medication treatments that have been recommended. provide a quiet darker environment for the fish.
stop feeding them for a day or two. The benefit of less waste and water polution outweighs the benefit of nutrition for right now.

 

[Victoria M]

That picture sure looks like turbellarians which has the same treatment of flukes. I am sure someone with more experience with turbellarians will rejoin the thread.

 

[Victoria M]

John,
what medications are currently in the hospital tank?
What doses? What date were they started?
Example--
Copper 1.75 ppm started 11/2

 

[Victoria M]

@Brew12 @HotRocks just wanted to draw your attention to the continued plight of this poor group of fish.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 @HotRocks just wanted to draw your attention to the continued plight of this poor group of fish.

Thanks! I've been crazy busy the last few days.

I'm sorry to see you are still losing fish. This stinks.

You are correct, this does absolutely look like black ich. I am not sure I have ever seen a system that has every conceivable parasite. It's amazing you had any fish alive for more than a week.

Wasn't a formalin bath performed on these fish to help with the brook? That should also have helped with the turbellarians. Since we feel we are dealing with velvet, turbellarians and brook at a minimum I feel the best continued treatment would be to maintain the copper, switch from Metroplex to General Cure, and add the Furan 2 when it is available. The General Cure has both Metroplex and Praziquantil so should help with the brook and turbellarians.

 

[Victoria M]

Thanks! I've been crazy busy the last few days.

I'm sorry to see you are still losing fish. This stinks.

You are correct, this does absolutely look like black ich. I am not sure I have ever seen a system that has every conceivable parasite. It's amazing you had any fish alive for more than a week.

Wasn't a formalin bath performed on these fish to help with the brook? That should also have helped with the turbellarians. Since we feel we are dealing with velvet, turbellarians and brook at a minimum I feel the best continued treatment would be to maintain the copper, switch from Metroplex to General Cure, and add the Furan 2 when it is available. The General Cure has both Metroplex and Praziquantil so should help with the brook and turbellarians.

Thank you, do you also agree with my advise regarding the ammonia and water changes? This is what I would do but...just want to make sure.

 

[Brew12]

Thank you, do you also agree with my advise regarding the ammonia and water changes? This is what I would do but...just want to make sure.

Sorry, missed that. I feel you are spot on with those recommendations. It's hard to maintain water medications while doing water changes. Most ammonia test kits will not be accurate if copper is in the water.

 

[johnbr]

@Brew12 @HotRocks @Victoria M

Guys THANKS, THANKS for all of that. Is because people like you and places like this forum that keep us going even during the darkest times.

I swear o God that I was decided to sell the tank but, YOU were the ones who changed my mind and I'm always gonna be in debt with you. This tank means the world to me.

I'm not gonna quote every reply to save space but let me put you guys up to speed.

I started Paraguard 3 weeks ago and ran it for 7 days. Sunday Nov 25th I started copper, after performing a fresh dip for 5 minutes and 90 minutes bath with ruby rally. Started copper at 1.25 raising 0.25 everyday until reaching 1.75ppm. After that I've been feeding the fish and performing water changes every 3 days (that's where I think the issue was). I also started to use metroplex and kanaplex with copper following all the instructions. So far the remaining fish are clean and healthy. Copper is currently at 1.77ppm.

I have Furan-2 arriving tomorrow. Can I use in conjunction with copper and metroplex? Regarding the water changes I didn't know that could hurt the medication and stress the fish that much. I honestly thought that I was doing them a favor tossing new and clean water. I will stop that and rely on both ammonia badges in the tank.

I'm feeding them 3-4x a day LRS, Nori, Pellets and Flakes (w/ Garlic).

 

[HotRocks]

John we all love this place just as much as you. Heck it's most of the reason I have the knowledge base. Learning through others, and adapting methods and treatments to try to help people beat this.

You did get a very unlucky draw. Many things hitting you at once here.

Let's simplify this as much as possible for you.

I'm not 100% convinced that is black ich on the fox. It could be however it's presenting itself different than what I have seen personally. Let's say it is for the sake of a treatment plan.

I have had negative effects from combining metro and copper only with tangs. Which sounds like you may have as well. But you had no other option at that point. The black ich isn't fatal generally with a quickness.

If you have general cure you can use it instead of metro (only for 2-3 doses). I would try to wait till after copper if possible.

I would stick with copper + metro + Furan-2 until you finish copper. Then go with two rounds of GC. You will have to do WCs according to the schedule for Furan-2.

I suggest adding the Furan-2 in case the fox has bacterial issues opposed to black ich.

Do you have a tank that you can transfer to after the 14 day mark of therapeutic copper? This is important IMO as hard as you are hitting these guys with meds. We need to get them out of copper ASAP to get the immune system back up.

 

[johnbr]

John we all love this place just as much as you. Heck it's most of the reason I have the knowledge base. Learning through others, and adapting methods and treatments to try to help people beat this.

You did get a very unlucky draw. Many things hitting you at once here.

Let's simplify this as much as possible for you.

I'm not 100% convinced that is black ich on the fox. It could be however it's presenting itself different than what I have seen personally. Let's say it is for the sake of a treatment plan.

I have had negative effects from combining metro and copper only with tangs. Which sounds like you may have as well. But you had no other option at that point. The black ich isn't fatal generally with a quickness.

If you have general cure you can use it instead of metro (only for 2-3 doses). I would try to wait till after copper if possible.

I would stick with copper + metro + Furan-2 until you finish copper. Then go with two rounds of GC. You will have to do WCs according to the schedule for Furan-2.

I suggest adding the Furan-2 in case the fox has bacterial issues opposed to black ich.

Do you have a tank that you can transfer to after the 14 day mark of therapeutic copper? This is important IMO as hard as you are hitting these guys with meds. We need to get them out of copper ASAP to get the immune system back up.

Rocks...

That was going to be my next question...

Since the 10 gallon was the only tank I had and I performed baths in that tank. I decided to buy a brand new AIO 20 gallon JUST for the transfer. I have 3 containers labelled to separate all the equipment and NEVER mix one with the other (DT, TRANSFER and QT).

How the transfer works? Just have the new tank ready to go matching salinity and temps after copper hits 14 days? Without any medication and then start the general cure in the 20 gallon that I bought for the transfer? or use the 30 gallon used for QT copper but first fill with water and bleach to sterilize and kill everything.

Thanks

 

[Victoria M]

for your questions
1. keep copper at 1.75 ppm
2. add metro and furan 2 to the tank with the copper.
3. in spare bucket or brutte container make up new saltwater dosed with copper to 1.75 ppm, as you will need this in a day or two.
4. follow the water change and redosing guidelines on the furan 2 and metroplex instructions, using the copper dosed saltwater. ( I believe it is at 24 hours after dosing change 25% of the water and redose the tank. read the instructions to be sure)
5. Do not feed them today or tomorrow. The benefit of less pollutants in the water outweights the benefit of nutrition right now.
6. Dose the tank with bottled bacteria daily.

soon get the 20 gallon sanitized and ready to go. It will be needed in 14 days. Make sure it is at least 10 feet away from your other tanks due to possible contamination thru micro droplets. General cure may or may not be necessary at this point.

 

[HotRocks]

Rocks...

That was going to be my next question...

Since the 10 gallon was the only tank I had and I performed baths in that tank. I decided to buy a brand new AIO 20 gallon JUST for the transfer. I have 3 containers labelled to separate all the equipment and NEVER mix one with the other (DT, TRANSFER and QT).

How the transfer works? Just have the new tank ready to go matching salinity and temps after copper hits 14 days? Without any medication and then start the general cure in the 20 gallon that I bought for the transfer?

Thanks

Yes you got it. Just exactly as you mentioned.

I do take one extra precautionary step upon transfer (I am a freak). I siphon tank water from copper QT into bucket. Then I mix up a new 5gallon bucket of SW and dose with copper.

My process is from copper QT to bucket 1, then to newly mixed bucket, then to new sterile QT. Using separate nets for each tank/bucket to eliminate any possibility of contamination.

 

[Victoria M]

John,
to clarify...you were changing water every three days? Did you put medications in this freshly made saltwater to keep the levels therapeutic?

 

[Victoria M]

Yes you got it. Just exactly as you mentioned.

I do take one extra precautionary step upon transfer (I am a freak). I siphon tank water from copper QT into bucket. Then I mix up a new 5gallon bucket of SW and dose with copper.

My process is from copper QT to bucket 1, then to newly mixed bucket, then to new sterile QT. Using separate nets for each tank/bucket to eliminate any possibility of contamination.

That aint too freaky. and it works for you. I do not use nets. I use gloved hands, throw away the gloves, and then I literally pour newly made water into the small tranfer container and dump over and over again. It works. It is the nurse in me.

 

[johnbr]

for your questions
1. keep copper at 1.75 ppm
2. add metro and furan 2 to the tank with the copper.
3. in spare bucket or brutte container make up new saltwater dosed with copper to 1.75 ppm, as you will need this in a day or two.
4. follow the water change and redosing guidelines on the furan 2 and metroplex instructions, using the copper dosed saltwater. ( I believe it is at 24 hours after dosing change 25% of the water and redose the tank. read the instructions to be sure)
5. Do not feed them today or tomorrow. The benefit of less pollutants in the water outweights the benefit of nutrition right now.
6. Dose the tank with bottled bacteria daily.

soon get the 20 gallon sanitized and ready to go. It will be needed in 14 days. Make sure it is at least 10 feet away from your other tanks due to possible contamination thru micro droplets. General cure may or may not be necessary at this point.

3. You got it.
5. Ok I thought feeding heavy during QT was a good thing to boost their immune system.
6. I got a big microbacter7 from brightwell aquatics.

Yes you got it. Just exactly as you mentioned.

I do take one extra precautionary step upon transfer (I am a freak). I siphon tank water from copper QT into bucket. Then I mix up a new 5gallon bucket of SW and dose with copper.

My process is from copper QT to bucket 1, then to newly mixed bucket, then to new sterile QT. Using separate nets for each tank/bucket to eliminate any possibility of contamination.

The tank is going to be brand new and all the equipment in it. I will use disposable gloves as mentioned by Victoria. The brute containers will be new.

John,
to clarify...you were changing water every three days? Did you put medications in this freshly made saltwater to keep the levels therapeutic?

Yes @Victoria M

I was dosing everything including keeping copper and temps at correct level before the water change.

 

[Victoria M]

3. You got it.
5. Ok I thought feeding heavy during QT was a good thing to boost their immune system.
6. I got a big microbacter7 from brightwell aquatics.



The tank is going to be brand new and all the equipment in it. I will use disposable gloves as mentioned by Victoria. The brute containers will be new.



Yes @Victoria M

I was dosing everything including keeping copper and temps at correct level before the water change.

Excellent. Glad to to hear that. What you are currently running is a hospital tank (HT) not a quarantine tank (QT) technically. Folks do sometimes use the terms interchangeably. When you are using these steps preventably or prophylactically in the quarantine process you do want to feed high quality foods, but only what the fish will consume without left overs in the tank. This is true in the hosptal tank also. It is actually even more important when medications that might compromise the biofiltration capabilities are in use. When your pet becomes this ill the water quality vs. nutrition vs. stress becomes an art to balance. When the fish is not eating with gusto then backing off is best. I recall that you mentioned that atleast some of the fish stopped eating. Just give them 24-48 hours to rest and try a tad bit of food again. I sure hope they pull through for you. What all fish have survived so far? and is your 20G AIO going to be atleast 10 ft away from the current tank. With all you are up against this is very important to prevent the spread of the parasites or bacteria to the clean tank thru micro droplets.

 

[johnbr]

Excellent. Glad to to hear that. What you are currently running is a hospital tank (HT) not a quarantine tank (QT) technically. Folks do sometimes use the terms interchangeably. When you are using these steps preventably or prophylactically in the quarantine process you do want to feed high quality foods, but only what the fish will consume without left overs in the tank. This is true in the hosptal tank also. It is actually even more important when medications that might compromise the biofiltration capabilities are in use. When your pet becomes this ill the water quality vs. nutrition vs. stress becomes an art to balance. When the fish is not eating with gusto then backing off is best. I recall that you mentioned that atleast some of the fish stopped eating. Just give them 24-48 hours to rest and try a tad bit of food again. I sure hope they pull through for you. What all fish have survived so far? and is your 20G AIO going to be atleast 10 ft away from the current tank. With all you are up against this is very important to prevent the spread of the parasites or bacteria to the clean tank thru micro droplets.

Thanks Vick...

Regarding the appetite the ones who survided are eating normally here they are: Blue Hippo, Yellow Tang, Fox Face, Diamond Goby, Six Line Wrasse and believe me or not my Copperband Butterfly which is the who eats the most.

I have a dedicated room just for the 20 gallon to make sure no contamination will happen.

Now comes the question after the transfer method which if everything goes right will happen on Sunday 9th and after doing the last 2 rounds of General Cure. How long should I wait and monitor before putting them back in the DT?

Oh, almost forgot do I need to keep copper in the transfer tank at least at low concentration? Like, 1.2 ppm?

Thanks