Is my refugium not needed?

[Charles Zinn]

What kind of substrate is in refugium? Have you done an ICP? I had troubnle with microalgae til I started dosing Trace and minor elelments and pods


































Hhave you done an ICP test

 

[VintageReefer]

I didn't read all of the posts, so if this has been answered/addressed, I apologize. You mentioned in your op that you're running both a refugium and an ATS, and that the ATS is performing well. Running both is kind of redundant as they're both trying to draw from the same nutrient source, so the one with the better lighting will typically win out in the nutrient export game. Ogo likes fairly strong lighting as it's found in shallower areas off the coast of Hawaii. It also needs a fair amount of trace elements similar to chaeto in order to help it grow, you can pick up some chaetogro from Brightwell and see how it goes for you. I would personally keep the fuge and ditch the ATS as the ATS is only really good at Nutrient export, while the Fuge is good at that AND growing pods and other benthic critters to maintain your overall Biome. That's just my 2 cents though.

ATS is significantly better at nutrient control compared to a refugium.

Turf algae grows faster and is at least 5x more efficient at nutrient removal than chaeto. I suspect the ats is performing the bulk of the nutrient reduction in the tank.

“Most” peoples fuges are poor at nutrient control because they simply are undersized. Common sumps have fuge sections that are undersized. But they do help a little, and they do house beneficial critters. It’s rare to see someone with a full reef and their only filtration / nutrient control is chaeto in their sump.

However, my ats provides full nutrient control in my 75g reef, I don’t use a skimmer, no reactors or carbon dosing, and I have not done water changes in over 30 months. I understand everyone’s setup an situation is unique, but I tried chaeto and while it did grow and was basketball sized, harvested weekly, it could not control my nutrients at all.

I added the ats and in a month all the chaeto was dead lol. A proper ats will outcompete a chaeto fuge easily, and will have more of an impact on the waters phosphate and nitrate levels.

OP should consider keeping the ats and then turning the fuge into a cryptic zone with no light, and lots of live rock. The critters and pods can happily live in the tons of live rock pores and cracks.

 

[Murica]

What kind of substrate is in refugium? Have you done an ICP? I had troubnle with microalgae til I started dosing Trace and minor elelments and pods


































Hhave you done an ICP test

That’s really helpful thank you. No, I’ve never done one but I do fairly large weekly water changes which hopefully helps with the trace elements.

 

[Murica]

ATS is significantly better at nutrient control compared to a refugium.

Turf algae grows faster and is at least 5x more efficient at nutrient removal than chaeto. I suspect the ats is performing the bulk of the nutrient reduction in the tank.

“Most” peoples fuges are poor at nutrient control because they simply are undersized. Common sumps have fuge sections that are undersized. But they do help a little, and they do house beneficial critters. It’s rare to see someone with a full reef and their only filtration / nutrient control is chaeto in their sump.

However, my ats provides full nutrient control in my 75g reef, I don’t use a skimmer, no reactors or carbon dosing, and I have not done water changes in over 30 months. I understand everyone’s setup an situation is unique, but I tried chaeto and while it did grow and was basketball sized, harvested weekly, it could not control my nutrients at all.

I added the ats and in a month all the chaeto was dead lol. A proper ats will outcompete a chaeto fuge easily, and will have more of an impact on the waters phosphate and nitrate levels.

OP should consider keeping the ats and then turning the fuge into a cryptic zone with no light, and lots of live rock. The critters and pods can happily live in the tons of live rock pores and cracks.

Thank you for that! That was helpful.

On a side note, what’s your method of dissing trace elements? I supplement my tank with all for reef but my understanding is that all for reef doesn’t contain everything a tank needs

 

[GARRIGA]

Check iron levels. My Pom Pom has responded well to ChaetoGro. So has GHA, unfortunately.

 

[VintageReefer]

Thank you for that! That was helpful.

On a side note, what’s your method of dissing trace elements? I supplement my tank with all for reef but my understanding is that all for reef doesn’t contain everything a tank needs

I only use all for reef. I keep LPS and softy dominant tank.

 

[Necrodaemus]

ATS is significantly better at nutrient control compared to a refugium.

Turf algae grows faster and is at least 5x more efficient at nutrient removal than chaeto. I suspect the ats is performing the bulk of the nutrient reduction in the tank.

“Most” peoples fuges are poor at nutrient control because they simply are undersized. Common sumps have fuge sections that are undersized. But they do help a little, and they do house beneficial critters. It’s rare to see someone with a full reef and their only filtration / nutrient control is chaeto in their sump.

However, my ats provides full nutrient control in my 75g reef, I don’t use a skimmer, no reactors or carbon dosing, and I have not done water changes in over 30 months. I understand everyone’s setup an situation is unique, but I tried chaeto and while it did grow and was basketball sized, harvested weekly, it could not control my nutrients at all.

I added the ats and in a month all the chaeto was dead lol. A proper ats will outcompete a chaeto fuge easily, and will have more of an impact on the waters phosphate and nitrate levels.

OP should consider keeping the ats and then turning the fuge into a cryptic zone with no light, and lots of live rock. The critters and pods can happily live in the tons of live rock pores and cracks.

And what impact does this have on available nutrients for corals?

 

[VintageReefer]

And what impact does this have on available nutrients for corals?

For me, none
My corals take all they need from the water column and the scrubber gets the excess. My nitrates are always 2-5 and phosphate .02-.05

You tune the scrubber by the number of hours it’s leds run per day. For me it’s 18 hours. If I want more nutrients, I reduce the lighting period. If I want lower nutrients, I run the leds longer

I grew most of these corals (not all, but most) from frags over the last 1-3 years

 

[JNalley]

ATS is significantly better at nutrient control compared to a refugium.

Turf algae grows faster and is at least 5x more efficient at nutrient removal than chaeto. I suspect the ats is performing the bulk of the nutrient reduction in the tank.

“Most” peoples fuges are poor at nutrient control because they simply are undersized. Common sumps have fuge sections that are undersized. But they do help a little, and they do house beneficial critters. It’s rare to see someone with a full reef and their only filtration / nutrient control is chaeto in their sump.

However, my ats provides full nutrient control in my 75g reef, I don’t use a skimmer, no reactors or carbon dosing, and I have not done water changes in over 30 months. I understand everyone’s setup an situation is unique, but I tried chaeto and while it did grow and was basketball sized, harvested weekly, it could not control my nutrients at all.

I added the ats and in a month all the chaeto was dead lol. A proper ats will outcompete a chaeto fuge easily, and will have more of an impact on the waters phosphate and nitrate levels.

OP should consider keeping the ats and then turning the fuge into a cryptic zone with no light, and lots of live rock. The critters and pods can happily live in the tons of live rock pores and cracks.

OP already mentioned that the refugium area is huge. Also, look at the Triton Method of reefing, no socks, Fuge and small skimmer only. Chaeto and ATS are operationally similar, more light/longer light cycle more uptake, less light, less uptake, so I don't understand how you said you didn't/couldn't control nutrients with a chaeto fuge. My setup is similar to the triton method, however, I am not running chaeto, instead I am running mostly Gracilaria species attached to a large rock and some miracle mud on the bottom. It works, but I use socks to help it out since I'm not running chaeto...

 

[musel101]

I have a very large refugium with red ogo growing (or at least trying to grow), however I’m not getting the growth that I thought Id get. It’s not like my tank is nutrient free either, so there should be plenty of food for the ogo to grow. The Refugium has sand and rock.

I have an ATS that performs very well which is rated 400-1000 gallons. My display is 450 (model size, really about 300-350 with rock and sand) and I have about 200 in the sump.

In people’s opinions, is running the underperforming refugium worth it or should I turn off all the lights and just have it be a benthic/cryptic zone (whichever one is without lights). Are benthic zones beneficial other than growing sponges and providing surface area for bacteria? Turning off the lights will save me electricity but if it’s worth keeping the Refugium alive, then I’ll keep them on.

Thanks all.

Getting rid of my refug light save me 30 bucks a month. I turned the large base into a biological filtration factory worked out good for me

 

[VintageReefer]

OP already mentioned that the refugium area is huge. Also, look at the Triton Method of reefing, no socks, Fuge and small skimmer only. Chaeto and ATS are operationally similar, more light/longer light cycle more uptake, less light, less uptake, so I don't understand how you said you didn't/couldn't control nutrients with a chaeto fuge. My setup is similar to the triton method, however, I am not running chaeto, instead I am running mostly Gracilaria species attached to a large rock and some miracle mud on the bottom. It works, but I use socks to help it out since I'm not running chaeto...

It’s simple, turf and slime algae are more efficient at nutrient absorption than most other species of algae.

His ats is a fraction the size of his huge fuge, yet I guarantee it’s providing more nutrient control/absorption.

I put an ats side by side with a basketball of chaeto. In one month the chaeto, which was well established and growing fine, in one month the chaeto was starved out and it all died. OP probably has more nutrients than both the scrubber and fuge can handle alone, so they work together. But as he said the scrubber is doing great and the fuge is growing slow / underperforming. Scrubber is taking the majority of the nutrients, the fuge gets the little bit leftover.

I’m familiar with triton but I don’t use a skimmer nor do I run icp tests to replace specific elements

 

[GARRIGA]

OP already mentioned that the refugium area is huge. Also, look at the Triton Method of reefing, no socks, Fuge and small skimmer only. Chaeto and ATS are operationally similar, more light/longer light cycle more uptake, less light, less uptake, so I don't understand how you said you didn't/couldn't control nutrients with a chaeto fuge. My setup is similar to the triton method, however, I am not running chaeto, instead I am running mostly Gracilaria species attached to a large rock and some miracle mud on the bottom. It works, but I use socks to help it out since I'm not running chaeto...

Intention is to run similar Triton method letting Pom Pom grow but likely going to either tumble it or just light it from all sides using submersible Tunze Chic lights or other as well as an LED strip from above. Except my goal is pH control and for that will peg the lights to turn off when pH exceeds a predetermined point. Overfeeding will ensure there's always ammonium and phosphates available. No way I'm going to try running a fine line on nutrients. Heavy in. Heavy out makes the most sense to me.

 

[JNalley]

It’s simple, turf and slime algae are more efficient at nutrient absorption than most other species of algae.

His ats is a fraction the size of his huge fuge, yet I guarantee it’s providing more nutrient control/absorption.

I put an ats side by side with a basketball of chaeto. In one month the chaeto, which was well established and growing fine, in one month the chaeto was starved out and it all died. OP probably has more nutrients than both the scrubber and fuge can handle alone, so they work together. But as he said the scrubber is doing great and the fuge is growing slow / underperforming. Scrubber is taking the majority of the nutrients, the fuge gets the little bit leftover.

I’m familiar with triton but I don’t use a skimmer nor do I run icp tests to replace specific elements

I wasn't arguing whether turf or chaeto was better... I already know turf takes in more nutrients... I was pointing out that this:

“Most” peoples fuges are poor at nutrient control because they simply are undersized. Common sumps have fuge sections that are undersized.

Is not applicable to this particular case, and this:

It’s rare to see someone with a full reef and their only filtration / nutrient control is chaeto in their sump.

Is also not the most accurate, as the Triton method is literally a refugium and a skimmer, and the Triton method of reefing is pretty popular.

The Ops ATS is definitely doing the heavy lifting in this scenario, as any ATS would. But a refugium, especially a "Huge" one, is more than capable of being good at nutrient export, and it has the benefit of beneficial critters, and the ability to grow your own food for your tangs and other algae eaters. If a refugium is done right, and the fishkeeper has enough control not to overfeed the tank, it absolutely can be the only source of filtration. I wholly agree that in *most* situations, prefabricated sumps have small refugium sections relative to the display, and in those instances, I would not recommend running a fuge unless you just want a place to breed pods and grow some macro and throw the occasional ****** fish for a timeout, but the benefits of a proper fuge IMO far outweigh the benefits of an ATS.

TLDR; If the sole purpose is some pH management and Nutrient control ATS is probably the way to go. If the purpose extends to growing your own food, having a safe space for fish in timeout, etc, opt for a refugium.

 

[Dburr1014]

I think, if I was the OP anyway, I would perform a test. Okay, maybe the ATS is better at stripping nutrients or the refugium is better at housing pods, what does the system need?

I would test it.

Shut down the ATS. Does the system do okay with just the refugium or are nutrients higher every week? Yes, the shut down the refugium and turn on the ATS.

Doesn't cost anything and you can see the results in live time.

My current system runs just fine on a Refugium and it's dialed in just nicely.

 

[GARRIGA]

Refugium going to remove more co2 than an ATS since efficiency gained by an ATS due to access to atmospheric air which has more co2.

 

[Murica]

This is great, thank you all for the conversation. When my nutrients get a little lower I’ll likely do a test and shut off one or the other

 

[VintageReefer]

I wasn't arguing whether turf or chaeto was better... I already know turf takes in more nutrients... I was pointing out that this:

Is not applicable to this particular case, and this:

Is also not the most accurate, as the Triton method is literally a refugium and a skimmer, and the Triton method of reefing is pretty popular.

The Ops ATS is definitely doing the heavy lifting in this scenario, as any ATS would. But a refugium, especially a "Huge" one, is more than capable of being good at nutrient export, and it has the benefit of beneficial critters, and the ability to grow your own food for your tangs and other algae eaters. If a refugium is done right, and the fishkeeper has enough control not to overfeed the tank, it absolutely can be the only source of filtration. I wholly agree that in *most* situations, prefabricated sumps have small refugium sections relative to the display, and in those instances, I would not recommend running a fuge unless you just want a place to breed pods and grow some macro and throw the occasional ****** fish for a timeout, but the benefits of a proper fuge IMO far outweigh the benefits of an ATS.

TLDR; If the sole purpose is some pH management and Nutrient control ATS is probably the way to go. If the purpose extends to growing your own food, having a safe space for fish in timeout, etc, opt for a refugium.

I agree with your points, no arguments from my side.

And when I said most peoples fuges are in prefab sumps and undersized for nutrient control - we both agree to that. I apologize though, it is not applicable here as I did not realize the size of the OP fuge. I read his build thread and understand now.

 

[Murica]

After thinking about this more, I decided to do a hybrid approach. I was concerned that if i just shut the lights off cold turkey, there would be a massive die off and create an imbalance. Instead, i removed 50 percent of the lights and turned the remaining lights on a day/night cycle instead of 24/7. This will avoid the die off, save over 60-70% of my electrical consumption and also continue to grow the red ogo (extremely slowly) which will provide occasional tasty meals to my tanks inhabitants.

This brainstorming really helped and I appreciate all the comments. Thanks all.

 

[Murica]

My algae slowly died off, avoiding a nutrient spike so I’m going to remove the algae I can and eliminate the light all together. At this point it’s apparent that it’s a complete waste. Cryptic/benthic zone it is.

 

[darrick001]

That’s really helpful thank you. No, I’ve never done one but I do fairly large weekly water changes which hopefully helps with the trace elements.

Yes it will help but your running an ATS and a refugium. Your minerals are being depleted much faster than a water change can replace. GHA uses less minerals and im guessing that is why it's doing better than your refugium. Running both is fine while you have plenty of nutrients but at some point your ATS will probably kill your refugium. They are just more effective. They need less minerals, have unlimited c02, usually have higher flow and lighting. I prefer a refugium for the other benifits. If you change to a cryptic type your flow will need to be reduced. They also take a very long time to develop. Once developed they seem to show good results. I would do an icp test. Then you will know what your missing.