Squidward
Valuable Member
Ich doesn't appear unless introduced. And no stress doesn't cause ich to magically appear.
is quarantining necessary?
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Squidward
Valuable Member
I'd rather qurantine than have a hospital tank. The qurantine tank is to prevent diseases from entering the display tank. That would make the hospital tank void.
tc3driver
Community Member
Now now now, I never claimed magic. I am stating that if you have a box with water in it, there is probably Ich contained within that water. Just the same as the nitrifying bacteria, you don't need to introduce it, it is just there, as part of nature. Can you introduce fish and greatly expand the existing population, absolutely!
To think that we as fish keepers can completely prevent a natural occurrence from happening within our tanks is optimistic at best, hubristic at worst.
My experience is different than yours, as minor Ich outbreaks have been tied to stress events within the tanks I have owned over the years. When I can see it as a repeatable thing, sorry to say, to me it is true. In my tanks, following stress events (power outages, heater failures, massive changes to a scape, even lighting changes) have always been followed with the appearance of Ich on a couple of my fish (at least), and it is usually gone in a couple of days. No I am not misidentifying Ich either.
Yes I have attempted the Fallow method, no success there, others have and had success, awesome. I can only speak from my own experiences, the testing that I have done, and my observations. (which is why I tend to not speak in absolutes)
Squidward
Valuable Member
So you're saying a freshly started tank with water and dry rock will suddenly have ich in the water? Just think about that. That doesn't make sense. You would have to had introduced ich wether by other live rock from another system or LFS, inverts, corals, or fish to have ich in your tank. I can assure you my tank is ich-free as I've qurantined all fish, corals, and inverts before going into my tank. Yes it is possible to have an ich-free tank.
Wasabiroot
Valonia Slayer
In my opinion, the benefits from quarantining fish in particular far outweigh the hassles. Yes, you need space and money for a proper setup, but if you're vigilant, you can catch some nasty stuff before it causes disproportionately more harm in your main display. For coral, I'd say that dipping is a minimum,but it really depends on the financial investment you've made, as everyone will have their own risk/reward equation. I don't personally quarantine corals even though I know that it can benefit me, as I'm relatively new and haven't heavily invested in my setup yet. But coming from many years of freshwater fish keeping, you'd better bet that the large farming systems, high end YouTube featured tanks and those with thousands in high end sticks are quarantining their corals AND fish and taking no chances. All it takes is one particularly nasty parasite to do serious damage.
Wannabereefvet
Community Member
In my experience, budget is the worst reason not to quarantine because you’ll end up re-stocking your tank 3-5 times after one infected fish ruins your tank.
I’ve even had additions to my quarantine tank (back when I would quarantine in groups) nearly wipe out entire groups.
my advice - even though it’s boring, take your time. Treat one fish at a time, maybe up to three if they’re all from the same place, and give everyone the best treatment you can for 2-4 months before adding them to the main display.
maybe that’s over kill, but you won’t kill your favorites that way.
R33fDaddy
Active Member
It's 100% necessary and it's not expensive to do. If you want to enjoy this hobby and not throw money down the drain then you have to Quarantine. All you need is a cheap Petco tank, sponge filter and some Seachem Cupramine to get started, you can get all that for less than 30 bucks.
Paul B
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I am totally different than many of you people in that I want ich and everything else in my tank just like in the sea. But I keep my fish healthy through the correct food which IMO most people don't feed.
I like ich, and it doesn't affect healthy immune fish. If you do a survey you will find out that "all " the old tanks are natural and don't have to worry about any disease.
But all the new tanks have to worry about that and quarantine.
Most of that is because new tanks don't have the proper bacteria in and outside the fish so the fish can't keep the immunity they had in the sea.
Quarantined or medicated fish are not very healthy no matter what you think which is why there are no old quarantined tanks. Think about that. The immune system is an intrical part of the fish and needs to be constantly stimulated to work.
A healthy fish, fed correctly and living with parasites will always remain healthy. New tanks crash from not quarantining or quarantining because the owner doesn't have the experience to keep the fish in the state of health it was in the sea.
That state of health is spawning state and only comes from the correct bacteria. The only healthy fish, and people are immune and they will stay that way if you do it correctly which is very easy.
I like ich, and it doesn't affect healthy immune fish. If you do a survey you will find out that "all " the old tanks are natural and don't have to worry about any disease.
But all the new tanks have to worry about that and quarantine.
Most of that is because new tanks don't have the proper bacteria in and outside the fish so the fish can't keep the immunity they had in the sea.
Quarantined or medicated fish are not very healthy no matter what you think which is why there are no old quarantined tanks. Think about that. The immune system is an intrical part of the fish and needs to be constantly stimulated to work.
A healthy fish, fed correctly and living with parasites will always remain healthy. New tanks crash from not quarantining or quarantining because the owner doesn't have the experience to keep the fish in the state of health it was in the sea.
That state of health is spawning state and only comes from the correct bacteria. The only healthy fish, and people are immune and they will stay that way if you do it correctly which is very easy.
Siberwulf
Active Member
Since all the big names are in here... If I have just Inverts, LR, Live Sand, and nothing else... for 90 days...and I QT my incoming fish using the TTM...I should have a near (or actual) zero chance of getting ich in there?
No.
it’s that using any other approach you have a fraction of a chance of success and that method you state above gets you the best % we have
source for the claim: first twenty pages of the disease forum where we can see what plainly works. That doesn’t mean in ten years another way won’t be covering the first twenty pages of the forum, but for today qt wins by a landslide. Jay uses in the fish disease forum what he uses to run a zoo. Since zoos across the world use his method/he uses their method if that’s the case, we would reserve changing course for the ways of forum posters until they get at least three participants in the first twenty pages of the fdf heh.
**back to Pauls method: all 20 pages in the FDF are junk fed, white rocked I can see so they’re causing their own need for this surgical and too sterile qt and fallow prep and that makes sense to me. Still, given the momentum of the public to use fish as soon as they can control ammonia we can’t abandon qt just yet.
bottle bac sellers have created a massive massive need for qt practices
it’s that using any other approach you have a fraction of a chance of success and that method you state above gets you the best % we have
source for the claim: first twenty pages of the disease forum where we can see what plainly works. That doesn’t mean in ten years another way won’t be covering the first twenty pages of the forum, but for today qt wins by a landslide. Jay uses in the fish disease forum what he uses to run a zoo. Since zoos across the world use his method/he uses their method if that’s the case, we would reserve changing course for the ways of forum posters until they get at least three participants in the first twenty pages of the fdf heh.
**back to Pauls method: all 20 pages in the FDF are junk fed, white rocked I can see so they’re causing their own need for this surgical and too sterile qt and fallow prep and that makes sense to me. Still, given the momentum of the public to use fish as soon as they can control ammonia we can’t abandon qt just yet.
bottle bac sellers have created a massive massive need for qt practices
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Siberwulf
Active Member
So where does the ich come from? Is TTM not 100% effective? Can Ich hide out in a fallow tank for 90 days? I thought 76 was the "safe" zone. Or is it just about getting "as close to zero" as possible, realizing it can literally never be "zero chance"?
They review that in the FDF
humblefish talked about organic laden sandbeds housing and shielding tomonts sometimes and I wouldn’t expect avg home aquarist to have a strong aseptic handling technique unless they’re lab trained. Res publica tells you they followed all the rules lol but they’re still cross contaminators by unknown habit and practice.
the method has acknowledged flaws even when ran ideally, but they win the % game to the point zoos use the method to run million dollar displays
eventually someone adds an unstated snail or decoration etc these are all potential vectors
humblefish talked about organic laden sandbeds housing and shielding tomonts sometimes and I wouldn’t expect avg home aquarist to have a strong aseptic handling technique unless they’re lab trained. Res publica tells you they followed all the rules lol but they’re still cross contaminators by unknown habit and practice.
the method has acknowledged flaws even when ran ideally, but they win the % game to the point zoos use the method to run million dollar displays
eventually someone adds an unstated snail or decoration etc these are all potential vectors
MichaelReefer
2500 Club Member
Curious, Paul. What supplements/food do you feed your fish? Simple Mysis? Any kind of additives?
Greybeard
2500 Club Member
My beard started turning grey when I was 16. The first people to call me that were not being friendly... but these days? I own that <stuff>. My oldest daughter started seeing grey hair at 14. She hated me for yearsGreybeard. I wonder why that is your name?Good afternoon. I know what you mean about sick animals but I think it's different than a sick dog. To me, and me alone, I feel fish keeping is a hobby and a dog is a pet. I know many people feel fish are pets and part of their family but I don't. Most fish in my life are dinner
It is true that many times fish come in sick. But I feel all fish in the sea are sick and carrying something. We as educated buyers just have to pick through them to find healthy ones.
I helped start 3 aquarium stores and am good friends with others and many of their fish come in dead or almost dead. They put the live ones in their tanks to see if they get better so they can sell them but the fish business is not profitable at all and of all the LFS owners I know and have known, they are all barely surviving.
If they didn't accept sick fish from their venders, they would hardly have anything to sell. The owner doesn't want his fish to be sick and tries very hard to cure them as it isn't very good for business.
We can of course not buy from certain stores, but there are very few stores left anyway and I don't think we can afford to lose any more.
LFS could of course not sell sick fish and only sell healthy ones but most of us won't buy a copperband for $300.00.
I myself don't mind fish with some parasites as long as it is not gasping from the surface. I would rather that then have the store drug the fish so much so we don't see any parasites but the fish will never recover.
Of course I get what you are saying and agree with you and we all should be able to get healthy fish.
Just my opinion of course as I know many people will disagree with my opinion.
My fishes, crabs, conchs... as much our pets as my three Great Pyrenees or our small flock of chickens. I certainly don't buy live animals without the intention of giving them as healthy and happy a life as possible... and yes, we fillet the occasional crappie around here. I'm a meat eater, and have no illusions about where my food comes from.
All fish in the sea are sick. Interesting opinion. I'd have to disagree... all fish are exposed to pathogens, parasites, predators... ok, sure, but a heathy fish successfully fends off such attacks.
Take that healthy fish, catch him in a net, dump him in a dirty holding tank with a fish density that far, far exceeds anything in nature, change his diet, take away his hiding places... one stressed fishy. Now, all of a sudden, that healthy fish no longer has the resources to fend off the same parasites and diseases, which have happily multiplied in numbers, what with all the stressed out fishes concentrated in these holding tanks.
That's where the problem starts. It's _THERE_ that we need to start to fix things, and I'm certainly not the only one that thinks so.
A decade ago, that beautiful fish you picked up at the LFS was likely teased out of the reef by blowing cyanide into his cave. Will it kill him? Sure, eventually, but the collector, exporter, wholesaler, and retailer have already gotten theirs, so who cares?
WE DO! And, I'm happy to say, cyanide fishing, while not totally gone, is far less common than it was a decade past.
Really? I would. If I knew that the vendor was doing everything they could to provide me with a healthy fish, and not just pocketing the profits... I'd be happy to. Biota is selling captive bred yellow tangs for close to that $300 price point, and having no problem selling them. There's no way I could set up and maintain a quarantine system for less than $300... why not? The biggest selling lights on BRS are > $600 each, and usually sold in multiples. It's certainly not a rarity for our hobbyists to spend big bucks. I'd guess over half the daily visitors to this site have something north of 5k in their systems. I know I fall into that category. Three bills? For a HEALTHY fish? Unlikely to infect my tank? Something that's chances of living are > 80%? Please. Take my money.
I respectfully disagree.
Been keeping marine aquariums since the early 80's. Have known many LFS operators, had friends open shops, etc. Yeah, it's a tough business. Today? Even more so, what with online vendors. A good one, one that quarantines themselves, or is at least willing to do so, at a price... is a treasure. We had one... but like most really good LFS's, the guy running it was more a hobbyist than a salesman. He got burned out, and shut it down.
Paul B
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None. I feed live blackworms a couple of times a week and some fresh or frozen clams that I buy live and freeze myself. The rest of the food they get is LRS food.
MichaelReefer
2500 Club Member
You realize he's had his tank like five decades right? Obviously he's doing something right.
