Is this Black Ich or Bacterial Infection?

Elliott ll · Jan 27, 2022

I've rarely had issues getting Moorish Idols to eat so a friend of mine ordered one and is having me QT him. The first week I noticed a few spots so I treated a single dose of Prazipro for 7 days and then did a 30% WC. Following this I've had him in Copper Power at 2.25ppm for about a week now. My thoughts were Black Ich, but now that Prazipro wasn't effective I am second guessing... Anyone have any idea what this could be? Should I do a second dosage with Prazipro? (I have good experience doing prazipro and copper together if needed).

Seen anything like this @Jay Hemdal ?

vetteguy53081 · Jan 27, 2022

Pic is great under proper light but very fuzzy especially while trying to expand it.
you can give the fish a freshwater dip to rule out turibela worms… and flukes.
How is fishs’ breathing rate?
Is it eating?
Any twitching/flashing?
Swimming into flow from power head?

Jay Hemdal · Jan 27, 2022

Eusvolk93 said:
I've rarely had issues getting Moorish Idols to eat so a friend of mine ordered one and is having me QT him. The first week I noticed a few spots so I treated a single dose of Prazipro for 7 days and then did a 30% WC. Following this I've had him in Copper Power at 2.25ppm for about a week now. My thoughts were Black Ich, but now that Prazipro wasn't effective I am second guessing... Anyone have any idea what this could be? Should I do a second dosage with Prazipro? (I have good experience doing prazipro and copper together if needed).

Seen anything like this @Jay Hemdal ?

Black ich - caused by two different turbellarians, isn't really controlled by praziquantel (yet literally EVERY resource lists that as a treatment). Turbellarians are best controlled by formalin or FW dips (since Dylox is too toxic for use around people I think). Praziquantel is effective against monogeneans and cestodes. It *may* work against turbellarians, but at a much higher dose than normal - 10 to 20 mg/l. That needs to be administered as a 2 to 3 hour dip.

That said - moorish idols are susceptible to black ich, but this may not be that - tough to see in the photo, but it looks like it is growing in "patches" here and turbellarians are more random in their distribution. Can you get a clearer photo?

Jay

Elliott ll · Jan 27, 2022

Okay here are some good ones I think! Sorry I have a poor quality camera. I can try and video him.

Some of the areas are gray and not black. I would say some areas are indeed "patchy" but if you zoom in they kind of also look like dots. He eats very well, when I got him I thought no way would he live because how skinny he was and already his spine is disappearing. He doesn't hangout in powerheads, always scanning the bottom for food.

A few things, he definitely had ich upon arrival... Which is why I decided to put him in my FOWLR tank that I use for copper treatments. But I don't think this is spots from Ich biting.

Thanks again Jay

Jay Hemdal · Jan 27, 2022

Eusvolk93 said:
Okay here are some good ones I think! Sorry I have a poor quality camera. I can try and video him.

Some of the areas are gray and not black. I would say some areas are indeed "patchy" but if you zoom in they kind of also look like dots. He eats very well, when I got him I thought no way would he live because how skinny he was and already his spine is disappearing. He doesn't hangout in powerheads, always scanning the bottom for food.

A few things, he definitely had ich upon arrival... Which is why I decided to put him in my FOWLR tank that I use for copper treatments. But I don't think this is spots from Ich biting.

Thanks again Jay

Hmmm, I see some spots that are most likely turbellarians, but that lighter stuff, in a patch just doesn't look like it to me.

I'm not sure how to advise you on this - I don't like hitting idols with a lot of meds. What about a course of hyposalinity? That would take care of ich and turbellarians.....

Jay

Elliott ll · Jan 27, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Hmmm, I see some spots that are most likely turbellarians, but that lighter stuff, in a patch just doesn't look like it to me.

I'm not sure how to advise you on this - I don't like hitting idols with a lot of meds. What about a course of hyposalinity? That would take care of ich and turbellarians.....

Jay

All of my tanks have wrasses currently in them but I can move some fish around and get him into my 40 gallon QT. How long should I keep salinity at 1.009 if doing hypo treatment? Is hypo more gentle than copper + formalin?

Also, besides wrasses anything else I should be worried about with hypo?

Jay Hemdal · Jan 28, 2022

Eusvolk93 said:
All of my tanks have wrasses currently in them but I can move some fish around and get him into my 40 gallon QT. How long should I keep salinity at 1.009 if doing hypo treatment? Is hypo more gentle than copper + formalin?

Also, besides wrasses anything else I should be worried about with hypo?

If otherwise healthy, wrasses have no issue with hyposalinity. The length of time for hypo is 30 to 35 days. I never treat copper AND formalin, that is too harsh. Hypo isn't "gentler" than copper, just different. Copper cures velvet, Hypo actually increases the chances for velvet and uronema.

Jay

Elliott ll · Jan 28, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
If otherwise healthy, wrasses have no issue with hyposalinity. The length of time for hypo is 30 to 35 days. I never treat copper AND formalin, that is too harsh. Hypo isn't "gentler" than copper, just different. Copper cures velvet, Hypo actually increases the chances for velvet and uronema.

Jay

Okay this is good information. I think I am going to following your recent post on Hyposalinity and perform it in my 40 gallon tank.

Elliott ll · Jan 31, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Black ich - caused by two different turbellarians, isn't really controlled by praziquantel (yet literally EVERY resource lists that as a treatment). Turbellarians are best controlled by formalin or FW dips (since Dylox is too toxic for use around people I think). Praziquantel is effective against monogeneans and cestodes. It *may* work against turbellarians, but at a much higher dose than normal - 10 to 20 mg/l. That needs to be administered as a 2 to 3 hour dip.

That said - moorish idols are susceptible to black ich, but this may not be that - tough to see in the photo, but it looks like it is growing in "patches" here and turbellarians are more random in their distribution. Can you get a clearer photo?

Jay

Do Black Ich spots move like Marine Ich spots do? I feel like the number of spots hasn't changed and they haven't moved.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 31, 2022

Eusvolk93 said:
Do Black Ich spots move like Marine Ich spots do? I feel like the number of spots hasn't changed and they haven't moved.

No - the worms that form the cysts stay longer in one spot than ich does - weeks instead of days. Even if you kill the worms by a dip, the black spot will stay for some time.
Jay